I just found out that IBM offers a free introductory COBOL course:

https://www.ibm.com/blogs/ibm-training/free-course-announcing-learning-cobol-p rogramming-with-vscode/

Is there actual demand for new COBOL developers? I thought companies were on the lookout for experienced developers who are either retired or about to retire.

Thoughts?

... It is always darkest just before you turn on the lights.

Re: COBOL?
By: unixl0rd to All on Tue May 02 2023 07:09 pm

Is there actual demand for new COBOL developers? I thought companies were on the lookout for experienced developers who are either retired or about to retire.

Thoughts?

that's the shit they were talking about during y2k. i'm not sure if it's so accurate now. why would companies be on the lookout for people who don't want
to work anymore?

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so accurate now. why would companies be on the lookout for people who don't want to work anymore?

My guess is that the codebase is so large and complicated that re-hiring retired devs would be more efficient than hiring new devs who don't know their way around the code. On the other hand, new applications may not require the same amount of experience, and this is where new devs would step in.

... Hand of Vecna? I give it to the liche.

unixl0rd wrote to All <=-

Is there actual demand for new COBOL developers? I thought companies
were on the lookout for experienced developers who are either retired
or about to retire.

The demand isn't what it used to be. But there are great deal of critical systems that use COBOL out there. Most companies, though, are actively trying to get off those systems for cost reasons (one of which is having to pay a COBOL developer a high salary).

IHMO: The demand is good - now. But the market is actively trying to reduce that demand. So in the long term, a COBOL career is not a good way to go.


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Re: COBOL?
By: unixl0rd to All on Tue May 02 2023 19:09:00

I just found out that IBM offers a free introductory COBOL course:

Is there actual demand for new COBOL developers? I thought companies were on the lookout for experienced developers who are either retired or about to retire.

There's still a lot of old mainframe code out there, especially in banking. The efforts have moved towards getting new devs to learn this stuff. That said, I think it's a dead end and I think a lot of getting new devs is more about undercutting the guys at retirement who are asking 3-4x what a new dev would expect to make.

Of course the older devs also have decades of experience and understanding which cannot be understated and shouldn't be undervalued.


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Re: COBOL?
By: unixl0rd to All on Tue May 02 2023 07:09 pm

Is there actual demand for new COBOL developers? I thought companies were on the lookout for experienced developers who are either retired or about to retire.

There's millions of pages of code that need to be maintained out there, and those retirees aren't getting any younger. :)
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Is there actual demand for new COBOL developers? I thought companies were on

lookout for experienced developers who are either retired or about to

etire.

COBOL - You're Thinking About It Wrong

"...[W]hile headlines might indicate the language had fallen into disfavor,
the amount of COBOL in use continues to grow, with 800 billion lines running
in production systems daily, according to a global survey conducted last year by enterprise software firm Micro Focus. COBOL is considered strategic by 92% of survey respondents, and over half said they expect their organizations to keep running their COBOL applications for at least another 10 years.

"COBOL suffers from a 'major image problem' that stems from fundamental misperceptions. When a group of academic and industry researchers asked members of the COBOL Working Group of the Open Mainframe Project to rank the top five COBOL misperceptions, the top opinions were that the language is outdated, hard to learn and a bad career choice.

"None of that is true, the researchers wrote in the December 2022 paper... Unlike modern programming languages that require specific syntax, COBOL is relatively simple to learn. It was developed 'o be easy to read, understand, and program for programmers in the 1960s who had few explicit training opportunities,' the paper said."

The article goes on to speculate that the COBOL's perception problem stems from "IT leaders" who were familiar with COBOL no longer being the ones making decisions. It also mentions how the lack of COBOL training and programmers lead to the issues that government unemployment systems had during the increased system demand caused by the pandemic.

More here: https://gcn.com/cloud-infrastructure/2023/01/cobol-youre-thinking-about-it-wron g/381563/

https://tinyurl.com/3maz6md7


* SLMR 2.1a * "Now who's laughing?! Now who's laughing?!" - Pagans

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unixl0rd wrote to MRO <=-

My guess is that the codebase is so large and complicated that
re-hiring retired devs would be more efficient than hiring new devs who don't know their way around the code. On the other hand, new
applications may not require the same amount of experience, and this is where new devs would step in.

The problem for these companies is:
1. COBOL isn't perceived as a good career path since it's being phased out.
2. While legacy code doesn't get alot of work done on it, it tends to be **bad** code because of the number of different programmers having worked on it over the (sometimes, many, many) years.

So new devs don't have the COBOL skills and have to be trained on something that has a corporate-stated end of life - which is a bad investment. And even if the new devs have COBOL skills, they wouldn't have the experience to quickly and effectively change the legacy code.


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Dumas Walker wrote to UNIXL0RD <=-

"COBOL suffers from a 'major image problem' that stems from fundamental misperceptions.

Somehow, I doubt it. If that's the problem with COBOL, it's also the problem with FORTRAN.

When a group of academic and industry researchers asked

Ahhh... Now I see where the reality distortion field comes in. 8)

The article goes on to speculate that the COBOL's perception problem
stems from "IT leaders" who were familiar with COBOL no longer being
the ones making decisions.

No. I think it has to do with companies figuring out that big IBM mainframes may not be the best solution for their needs and that COBOL has some pretty severe limitations.

Speaking of the 2 very large corporations that I have experience with (one was a large warehouse system, the other a large retailer), both had multi-year plans to phase out COBOL. By the time I left those companies, they were well on their way down that plan, and both had done big changes to their COBOL developer corps (some layoffs, some retraining).

However, like weight loss, where that last 10% to your goal is hard, getting rid of that last 10% of the COBOL code might take a while.


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IHMO: The demand is good - now. But the market is actively trying to reduce that demand. So in the long term, a COBOL career is not a good way to go.

While I tend to agree with you, that is what they were saying after Y2K
came and passed. That was 23 years ago. :)


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Dumas Walker wrote to DR. WHAT <=-

IHMO: The demand is good - now. But the market is actively trying to reduce that demand. So in the long term, a COBOL career is not a good way to go.

While I tend to agree with you, that is what they were saying after Y2K came and passed. That was 23 years ago. :)

But they were right. The number of COBOL jobs dropped significantly after Y2K.
And most of the ones left are maintenance jobs.

I never said that COBOL was gone. But as a long term career, COBOL is a poor choice. Now, COBOL plus <something else> may be a good thing in most companies today. But a COBOL-only programmer isn't going to have a good job for 20 years.


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Re: Re: COBOL?
By: Dr. What to Dumas Walker on Fri May 05 2023 07:20 am

But a COBOL-only programmer isn't going to have a good job for 20 years.

... said someone 20 years ago. :-)
--
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Re: Re: COBOL?
By: Dr. What to Dumas Walker on Fri May 05 2023 07:20 am

I never said that COBOL was gone. But as a long term career, COBOL is a poor choice. Now, COBOL plus <something else> may be a good thing in most companies today. But a COBOL-only programmer isn't going to have a good job for 20 years.

if they worked for my state govt they would.
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MRO wrote to Dr. What <=-

I never said that COBOL was gone. But as a long term career, COBOL is a poor choice. Now, COBOL plus <something else> may be a good thing in most companies today. But a COBOL-only programmer isn't going to have a good job for 20 years.

if they worked for my state govt they would.

*sigh* Yes. I keep forgetting about the technical backwater which is the gov't.


... A hundred years from now, none of us will give a damn.
--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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I never said that COBOL was gone. But as a long term career, COBOL is a poor choice. Now, COBOL plus <something else> may be a good thing in most companies today. But a COBOL-only programmer isn't going to have a good

o

for 20 years.

if they worked for my state govt they would.

They would here, too, *except* they could get paid a lot more elsewhere,
even as a contract employee.


* SLMR 2.1a * It's the Bucket woman! She'll sing at me!!!

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MRO wrote to Dr. What <=-

I never said that COBOL was gone. But as a long term career, COBOL is a poor choice. Now, COBOL plus <something else> may be a good thing in most companies today. But a COBOL-only programmer isn't going to have a good job for 20 years.

if they worked for my state govt they would.

Yeah, I don't think the idea was to put all of your eggs in one basket,
says the guy with FORTRAN in his handle. :)




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Dr. What wrote to MRO <=-

*sigh* Yes. I keep forgetting about the technical backwater which is
the gov't.

California EDD was backlogged during COVID and blamed their COBOL code.
I bet they were waiting on budget for another dozen AS/400s.



... Only the machine keeps using time to make time to make time.
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Dumas Walker wrote to MRO <=-

if they worked for my state govt they would.

They would here, too, *except* they could get paid a lot more
elsewhere, even as a contract employee.

Yeah, but after working for a local government for a time, the key isn't
the salary - it's the PENSION. Keep your head down, don't make waves,
last 5 years and you could start collecting a pension when you retire.

The floor was something like 5% after 5 years, scaling upwards every
year. 5 percent of your salary FOR LIFE. Once you get in the habit of
doing just enough to not get fired and don't come onto anyone's radar,
the years just keep piling up.



... Only the machine keeps using time to make time to make time.
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poindexter FORTRAN wrote to MRO <=-

Yeah, I don't think the idea was to put all of your eggs in one basket, says the guy with FORTRAN in his handle. :)

I have his brother, Microsoft FORTRAN, working on my NuXT system.
It actually works pretty good for something that old.


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They would here, too, *except* they could get paid a lot more
elsewhere, even as a contract employee.

Yeah, but after working for a local government for a time, the key isn't
the salary - it's the PENSION. Keep your head down, don't make waves,
last 5 years and you could start collecting a pension when you retire.

The floor was something like 5% after 5 years, scaling upwards every
year. 5 percent of your salary FOR LIFE. Once you get in the habit of
doing just enough to not get fired and don't come onto anyone's radar,
the years just keep piling up.

That depends on the state you live in. States like Kentucky and Illinois,
who were busy cutting benefits for new hires vs. funding their obligation to retirement, and then trying to get the fed government to allow them to
declare the system bankrupt, are not good places to go like they might have been in the 1990's and before.

Kentucky cut out the 5% annual COLA increment/increase 20 years ago. They didn't really cut it out, they just quit paying it about the same time they quit paying their retirement funding obligation. One year, someone
realized they had a whole group of people who had not got raises in years
had fallen UNDER the federal poverty level. So they got just enough of
an increase (only that group, and not anywhere near the cost of living) to
get them back above the poverty level. IIRC, it may have happened twice.

Until a year ago, very few long term employees that had less than 20 years experience had ever got any kind of annual increment or cost of living pay increases during their entire state government career, beyond the initial
5% they got for making it to the end of probation. The only pension most
of them will get is what they put in their 401 or 457 account which, unless they were smart and moved a bunch of their money to the low-but-guaranteed
fix rate option, is not looking real good lately.

I doubt KY is the only state government where this has become true, but
about the only people who they can recruit and keep now are people who
cannot hold down a job anywhere else, people who are married to someone
that has a good paying job with good benefits, or people who are holding
down 2 (or more) jobs. The rest stay long enough to get experience and then leave for someplace with better pay, benefits, and maybe even full-time remote work.

The only IT staff they hire now are contract employees.


* SLMR 2.1a * 2 + 2 = 5 for extremely large values of 2.

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*sigh* Yes. I keep forgetting about the technical backwater which is the gov't.

California EDD was backlogged during COVID and blamed their COBOL code.
I bet they were waiting on budget for another dozen AS/400s.

Kentucky was blaming "the computer program" for the UI issues during the
same period, but the real problem was that they had stopped staffing the
area in charge of updating the code. They only had 2 programmers on
staff to try to make all of the changes required to override the rules of "normal, non-pandemic processing."


* SLMR 2.1a * Got my tie caught in the fax... Suddenly I was in L.A.

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Re: COBOL?
By: unixl0rd to All on Tue May 02 2023 07:09 pm

Asking whether a given niche language is a good one to learn for job purposes is rough.

I follow a gent on Twitter who is one of the more well known experts on IBM mainframes and Cobol and the like, as well as integrating them with modern systems.

He recently lost his job with IBM, and was casting around looking for new employment, and it was rough.

Does that mean you shouldn't learn COBOL or IBM mainframe technology? Not at all! It could be an interesting experience and improve the depth and breadth of your understanding of technology as a whole.

But are your chances good for being able to walk into a COBOL job because you tool this course? Maybe, but I certainly wouldn't bet the farm on it :)

To my mind, contributing to open source and building a resume of code people can review and appreciate matters a lot more, as well as job experience.

The thing employers want to know is: Can you do what they need?

Good luck, have fun, and keep learning no matter what you do!

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Feoh wrote to unixl0rd <=-

He recently lost his job with IBM, and was casting around looking for
new employment, and it was rough.

Does that mean you shouldn't learn COBOL or IBM mainframe technology?
Not at all! It could be an interesting experience and improve the depth and breadth of your understanding of technology as a whole.

I was thinking of people learning the basics of COBOL or RPG as an
additional skill. I thought that might come in handy, and for the jobs
looking for those skills, finding someone not near retirement age might
set you apart from any competition for the role.

(As I look at my own career, and realize I'm one of those guys nearing retirement age... except with no mainframe experience.)

To my mind, contributing to open source and building a resume of code people can review and appreciate matters a lot more, as well as job experience.

Modern languages are a little more conducive to home projects, in my
opinion. A Github page with utilities written in BASH, a Python script,
or PHP that you use personally seems likely.

A COBOL program that collates inventory orders and updates onhand
quantities? Not something you'd code in your spare time (or at home!)




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Re: COBOL?
By: unixl0rd to All on Tue May 02 2023 07:09 pm

I just found out that IBM offers a free introductory COBOL course:

https://www.ibm.com/blogs/ibm-training/free-course-announcing-learning-cobol rogramming-with-vscode/

Is there actual demand for new COBOL developers? I thought companies were on

Thoughts?

... It is always darkest just before you turn on the lights.

If COBOL is something you're interested in it's definitely still worth having it on your resume. I probably wouldn't put it at the TOP of the resume (depending on the job your applying for), but there is still some good demand for COBOL programmers out there.
Speaking from experience, where I work (as is the case everywhere) the cobol programmers are aging out and retiring. The new ones we hire are still in the same general age range and I'm sure they are demanding a lot of money since the pool is getting smaller and the codebase is still significant.

It's proven to be a very resilient language despite it's faults, and more reliable than many of the newer ones to come along over the last 20+ years (IMO).
-----------------------
CDP
- The Diamond Mine BBS
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Speaking from experience, where I work (as is the case everywhere) the cobol programmers are aging out and retiring. The new ones we hire are still in the same general age range and I'm sure they are demanding a
lot of money since the pool is getting smaller and the codebase is still significant.

I've got about fifteen years of experience as a web developer and to be honest I am kinda bored. Learning COBOL might give me the stimulation I need right now even if it doesn't land me a job.

... I BM. You BM. We all BM for IBM!

Re: Re: COBOL?
By: unixl0rd to CDP on Thu Jun 01 2023 07:45 pm

Speaking from experience, where I work (as is the case everywhere) the cobol programmers are aging out and retiring. The new ones we hire are still in the same general age range and I'm sure they are demanding a lot of money since the pool is getting smaller and the codebase is still significant.

I've got about fifteen years of experience as a web developer and to be honest I am kinda bored. Learning COBOL might give me the stimulation I need right now even if it doesn't land me a job.

must be nice to have the time to do that.
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unixl0rd wrote to CDP <=-

I've got about fifteen years of experience as a web developer and to be honest I am kinda bored. Learning COBOL might give me the stimulation I need right now even if it doesn't land me a job.

In general, learning other languages, especially on different platforms, teaches you a great deal and make you think a little differently in the programming languages that you use.

Back when I was in college, they taught Pascal as the starting language. Not because it was a great language that you would use in the Real World, but because you would often take the ideas that you learned in Pascal and apply them to other languages like FORTRAN or COBOL (ex: minimize GOTO statements).

For me, learning about Python's async code helped me a great deal in understanding the same ideas in C# that I use for work.

It also helps to get a difference perspective from other systems with other constraints. At work, we had a problem where a newby programmer basically sent 16GB through a system that assumed that data would be 16MB and basically gummed everything up. The root problem was that this newby programmer had never encountered a system that didn't have more than enough resources to do whatever he want. For those of us who grew up with computers with 16K, we always think about asking if we have enough resources.


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Re: Re: COBOL?
By: unixl0rd to CDP on Thu Jun 01 2023 07:45 pm

I've got about fifteen years of experience as a web developer and to be honest I am kinda bored. Learning COBOL might give me the stimulation I need right now even if it doesn't land me a job.

There's a lot of demand for other programming languages too. Lately, several of the projects I've worked on have used C# (Windows desktop software), and there's a lot of demand for mobile development too (Kotlin or Java on Android, and Swift or Objective-C on iOS). C++ and C are used for some projects, and so on.. Depends on what you'd be working on.

Nightfox

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Re: Re: COBOL?
By: unixl0rd to CDP on Thu Jun 01 2023 07:45 pm

I've got about fifteen years of experience as a web developer and to be hone

... I BM. You BM. We all BM for IBM!

Coincidentally I have a book sitting on my desk in front of me that I had tucked away for years and never used. Sams Teach Yourself Cobol in 21 Days. I've actually been going through that in my spare time just to do something with the book before I pass it on. I work mostly as an admin in infrastructure so the bulk of my 'coding' is really scripting and ansible playbooks.

We have young developers who might be able to use it though. It's fun watching Java devs wrapping their heads around Cobol, but they seem to do ok. It's unique compared to some of todays languages but not terrible to learn at all. -----------------------
CDP
- The Diamond Mine BBS
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Re: Re: COBOL?
By: CDP to unixl0rd on Fri Jun 02 2023 07:29 pm

Re: Re: COBOL?
By: unixl0rd to CDP on Thu Jun 01 2023 07:45 pm

I've got about fifteen years of experience as a web developer and to be hone

... I BM. You BM. We all BM for IBM!

Coincidentally I have a book sitting on my desk in front of me that I had tucked away for years and never used. Sams Teach Yourself Cobol in 21 Days. I've actually been going through that in my spare time just to do something with the book before I pass it on. I work mostly as an admin in

get back to us in 21 days.
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