• Re: The Fourth Industrial Revolution

    From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Ogg on Fri Aug 7 17:38:00 2020
    On 08-06-20 20:43, Ogg wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    The discussion was what would humans do when they are all jobless and replaced by automation. At least total displacement is the theorical extreme. I don't think that would ever be the reality. Money
    ultimately drives progress and/or exploitation. Rich people need other people.

    I'm just pointing out not all people are defined or dependent (other than financially) upon their occupations.

    The writers for StarTrek or similar have explored the idea of societies where automation surpasses human efficiency, and eventually androids/ machines "decide" that humans are a hinderance to further efficiency therefore must be destroyed.

    Yes, that is a common theme in sci fi, as I said last time around.


    ... By the time most of us have money to burn, our fire's gone out.
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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Ogg on Sat Aug 8 23:31:00 2020
    Re: Re: The Fourth Industrial Revolution
    By: Ogg to Vk3jed on Thu Aug 06 2020 08:43 pm

    The discussion was what would humans do when they are all jobless and replaced by automation. At least total displacement is the theorical extreme. I don't think that would ever be the reality. Money ultimately drives progress and/or exploitation. Rich people need other people.

    The writers for StarTrek or similar have explored the idea of societies where automation surpasses human efficiency, and eventually androids/ machines "decide" that humans are a hinderance to further efficiency therefore must be destroyed.

    "So we cannot know if we will be infinitely helped by AI, or ignored by it and side-lined, or conceivably destroyed by it. Unless we learn how to prepare for, and avoid the potential risks, AI could be the worst event in the history of our civilization." - Stephen Hawking

    This reminds me of the weird cult in Deus Ex known as The Church of the Machine God. Its acolytes believed that it was imperative man merge with AI in order to avoid being destroyed by it.

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  • From Ogg@VERT/EOTLBBS to Andeddu on Sun Aug 9 14:29:00 2020
    Hello Andeddu!

    ** On Saturday 08.08.20 - 18:31, andeddu wrote to Ogg:

    ...Money ultimately drives progress and/or exploitation. Rich people
    need other people.

    The writers for StarTrek or similar have explored the idea of
    societies where automation surpasses human efficiency, and eventually
    androids/machines "decide" that humans are a hinderance to further
    efficiency therefore must be destroyed.

    "So we cannot know if we will be infinitely helped by AI, or ignored by
    it and side-lined, or conceivably destroyed by it. Unless we learn how
    to prepare for, and avoid the potential risks, AI could be the worst
    event in the history of our civilization." - Stephen Hawking

    I am glad you posted that.

    From a BBC article:

    "Stanley Kubrick's film 2001 and its murderous computer HAL encapsulate
    many people's fears of how AI could pose a threat to human life"

    Even Elon Musk has reservations on AI. I haven't read much on Elon's concerns, but I will now.

    My take on AI is that although it is referred to "machine learning" by engineers, it is still a bunch of if/then/else sequences done very fast to appear like the device is smart. The if/then/else stuff and any other considerations still have to be programmed by humans. Humans are not
    perfect and cannot forsee all scenarios.


    This reminds me of the weird cult in Deus Ex known as The Church of the Machine God. Its acolytes believed that it was imperative man merge
    with AI in order to avoid being destroyed by it.

    Never heard of that one. But maybe its proponents are behind the nano-
    tech stuff that scientists want to inject into our bodies on the premise
    that it will manage our health and repair our bodies.

    But maybe we first all have to have the covid vaxx to make us vulnerable
    so that that new nano-tech is justified to fix us. LOL

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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Ogg on Sun Aug 9 22:41:35 2020
    Re: Re: The Fourth Industrial Revolution
    By: Ogg to Andeddu on Sun Aug 09 2020 02:29 pm

    I am glad you posted that.

    From a BBC article:

    "Stanley Kubrick's film 2001 and its murderous computer HAL encapsulate
    many people's fears of how AI could pose a threat to human life"

    Even Elon Musk has reservations on AI. I haven't read much on Elon's concerns, but I will now.

    My take on AI is that although it is referred to "machine learning" by engineers, it is still a bunch of if/then/else sequences done very fast to appear like the device is smart. The if/then/else stuff and any other considerations still have to be programmed by humans. Humans are not perfect and cannot forsee all scenarios.

    Elon Musk began with reservations on AI and spoke mostly about how it would destroy mankind, as we would be the mere intellectual equivalent of cattle compared to it. Now that he's had some time to ponder the question, he has decided that it would be best if we merged with AI, in a "if you can't beat them, join them" kind of solution.

    He has since pumped huge funds into his Neuralink nano-tech company and is in the process of creating a brain-machine interface. He has already made progress in this field and is due this year to experiment on live humans by implanting thousands of electodes into their brains in a non-invasive surgical procedure. Sounds a little crazy, but this appears to be the beginning the trans-humanist experience.

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  • From Ogg@VERT/EOTLBBS to Andeddu on Mon Aug 10 08:20:00 2020
    Hello Andeddu!

    ** On Sunday 09.08.20 - 17:41, andeddu wrote to Ogg:

    Elon Musk began with reservations on AI and spoke mostly about how it
    would destroy mankind, as we would be the mere intellectual equivalent
    of cattle compared to it. Now that he's had some time to ponder the question, he has decided that it would be best if we merged with AI, in
    a "if you can't beat them, join them" kind of solution.

    Yes.. I started to find that out. :(


    He has since pumped huge funds into his Neuralink nano-tech company and
    is in the process of creating a brain-machine interface. He has already
    made progress in this field and is due this year to experiment on live humans by implanting thousands of electodes into their brains in a non- invasive surgical procedure.

    Non-invasive + surgical sound like an oxymoron. The wires are intended to pierce certain areas deep in the brain.

    From a London (CNN Business) 2019/07/17 article:

    "the devices can be used by those seeking a memory boost or by stroke victims, cancer patients, quadriplegics or others with congenital
    defects."

    Ya.. that sounds good.

    "The chips will connect to an iPhone app that the user can control."

    That DOESN'T sound too good. That's just another thing that is sure to be exploited from the outside.


    Sounds a little crazy, but this appears to be the beginning the trans- humanist experience.

    So far, it doesn't sound much different than a heart pace-maker implant,
    or the implants for diabetes patients to report blood sugar and control automatic insulin injections. Neurolink is being done in the guise of helping handicapped persons. It wouldn't be too long before it is done
    for entertainment and military purposes.

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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Ogg on Mon Aug 10 18:46:12 2020
    Re: Neuralink
    By: Ogg to Andeddu on Mon Aug 10 2020 08:20 am

    Non-invasive + surgical sound like an oxymoron. The wires are intended to pierce certain areas deep in the brain.

    From a London (CNN Business) 2019/07/17 article:

    "the devices can be used by those seeking a memory boost or by stroke victims, cancer patients, quadriplegics or others with congenital
    defects."

    Ya.. that sounds good.

    "The chips will connect to an iPhone app that the user can control."

    That DOESN'T sound too good. That's just another thing that is sure to be exploited from the outside.


    Sounds a little crazy, but this appears to be the beginning the trans- humanist experience.

    So far, it doesn't sound much different than a heart pace-maker implant,
    or the implants for diabetes patients to report blood sugar and control automatic insulin injections. Neurolink is being done in the guise of helping handicapped persons. It wouldn't be too long before it is done
    for entertainment and military purposes.

    The neuralace electrodes are inserted through the skull & stitched into the patient's brain by a robot. The implanted threads are so thin that no damage is caused to the brain during the procedure.

    The procedure is, of course, being sold as a benefit to mankind as an ingenius method of overcoming disabilities. Imagine prostetic appendages controlled via Neuralink by the power of the mind, etc...

    In true Musk style, he has hinted that Neuralink isn't just for those who are disadvantaged by disability. He clearly states that everyone in the future will have the procedure carried out so that they too can achieve a "symbiosis with artificial intelligence."

    ---
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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Andeddu on Mon Aug 10 14:03:34 2020
    Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Ogg on Mon Aug 10 2020 06:46 pm

    In true Musk style, he has hinted that Neuralink isn't just for those who are disadvantaged by disability. He clearly states that everyone in the future will have the procedure carried out so that they too can achieve a "symbiosis with artificial intelligence."

    Musk seems to have some weird ideas. Why would you want to do that?
    Also, I've heard Elon Musk thinks we're probably living in a simulation, like the movie "The Matrix":
    https://www.space.com/41749-elon-musk-living-in-simulation-rogan-podcast.html

    Nightfox

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  • From Warpslide@VERT/NRBBS to Ogg on Mon Aug 10 21:04:00 2020
    On 10 Aug 2020, Ogg said the following...

    So far, it doesn't sound much different than a heart pace-maker implant, or the implants for diabetes patients to report blood sugar and control automatic insulin injections. Neurolink is being done in the guise of helping handicapped persons. It wouldn't be too long before it is done for entertainment and military purposes.

    Or a insulin pump that can be taken over through bluetooth & deliver a fatal dose:

    "These Hackers Made an App That Kills to Prove a Point"

    "Medtronic and the FDA left an insulin pump with a potentially deadly vulnerability on the market-until researchers who found the flaw showed how
    bad it could be."

    https://www.wired.com/story/medtronic-insulin-pump-hack-app/

    Jay

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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Nightfox on Tue Aug 11 16:17:02 2020
    Re: Neuralink
    By: Nightfox to Andeddu on Mon Aug 10 2020 02:03 pm

    Musk seems to have some weird ideas. Why would you want to do that?
    Also, I've heard Elon Musk thinks we're probably living in a simulation, like the movie "The Matrix":

    https://www.space.com/41749-elon-musk-living-in-simulation-rogan-podcast.html

    I can't see man merging with machine for at least a number of decades. Musk said it'll happen in a meaningful way in around 5 years, but I think he's being a little too ambitious with his time scale. We will one day have machines carry out much of the thinking for us. There will no longer be any requirement to be sat in front of a computer terminal either as you'll have access to the cloud via brain implants. I do believe this will happen as a natural progression of programmes such as Neuralink, but we'll be pretty old by then so it's not something we, as a generation, have to consider.

    The idea that we are living as part of a simulation is something we can neither prove or disprove... it's just one of those interesting thought experiments similar to the holographic universe.

    ---
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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Warpslide on Tue Aug 11 16:52:37 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Warpslide to Ogg on Mon Aug 10 2020 09:04 pm

    "Medtronic and the FDA left an insulin pump with a potentially deadly vulnerability on the market-until researchers who found the flaw showed how bad it could be."

    https://www.wired.com/story/medtronic-insulin-pump-hack-app/

    Jay

    Humans with a built in kill-switch... sounds like we'll all be part of some futuristic dystopian nightmare!

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  • From Ogg@VERT/EOTLBBS to All on Tue Aug 11 20:02:00 2020
    Hello Andeddu!

    ** On Tuesday 11.08.20 - 11:17, andeddu wrote to Nightfox:

    I can't see man merging with machine for at least a number of decades.
    Musk said it'll happen in a meaningful way in around 5 years, but I
    think he's being a little too ambitious with his time scale.

    I happened to come across a TED interview where he describes his "boring" project, and that tunnels will be in use within 5 years. The interview
    was well over 5 years ago.


    access to the cloud via brain implants. I do believe this will happen
    as a natural progression of programmes such as Neuralink, but we'll be pretty old by then so it's not something we, as a generation, have to consider.

    I wonder if there would be benefits to alzheimer patients.


    The idea that we are living as part of a simulation is something we
    can neither prove or disprove... it's just one of those interesting
    thought experiments similar to the holographic universe.

    A silly thought experiment. A waste of time.

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  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Ogg on Tue Aug 11 19:03:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Ogg to All on Tue Aug 11 2020 08:02 pm

    I can't see man merging with machine for at least a number of
    decades. Musk said it'll happen in a meaningful way in around 5
    years, but I think he's being a little too ambitious with his time
    scale.
    I happened to come across a TED interview where he describes his "boring" project, and that tunnels will be in use within 5 years. The interview was well over 5 years ago.

    Musk is always ambitious with his estimated timeframes. The reality usually comes out somewhere in between his predictions and the commonly held beliefs. Given that, I'd expect to start seeing some level of adoption more in the 15-ish year range. Maybe a little quicker, maybe a little slower.
    ---
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  • From Ogg@VERT/EOTLBBS to Warpslide on Tue Aug 11 21:00:00 2020
    Hello Warpslide!

    ** On Monday 10.08.20 - 17:04, warpslide wrote to Ogg:

    So far, it doesn't sound much different than a heart pace-maker
    implant, or the implants for diabetes patients to report blood sugar
    and control automatic insulin injections. ....

    Or a insulin pump that can be taken over through bluetooth & deliver a fatal dose:

    "These Hackers Made an App That Kills to Prove a Point"

    "Medtronic and the FDA left an insulin pump with a potentially deadly vulnerability on the market-until researchers who found the flaw
    showed how bad it could be."

    https://www.wired.com/story/medtronic-insulin-pump-hack-app/

    That is just terrible!

    The Wired article is dated last July, and the story is two years old!

    It just boggles the mind that the wise and clever engineers do not think
    of the in-the-clear nature of radio and that therefore encrypted data
    would be an absolute requirement.

    The same problem existed in the early key fobs for cars and the remote controllers for garage doors.

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  • From Ogg@VERT/EOTLBBS to Andeddu on Tue Aug 11 21:14:00 2020
    Hello Andeddu!

    ** On Monday 10.08.20 - 13:46, andeddu wrote to Ogg:

    The neuralace electrodes are inserted through the skull & stitched
    into the patient's brain by a robot. The implanted threads are so thin
    that no damage is caused to the brain during the procedure.

    It's a kind of invasive operation in my book.

    Who's is to say that the electronics would be immmune to interception and/
    or trigger seizures or fits.

    It's all fine and dandy to imagine something like StarTrek's Borg
    characters, but how these wires and probes and signals that are fed to the brain will affect normal biology is another matter.

    Was it The Matrix where the characters have some sort of "plug" at the
    base of their skulls?

    I would think that the interfaces for these sorts of things would prove to
    be a maintenance nightmare as they would be a source of infection.

    Musk may be a tech guy, but he's not a biology guy.


    In true Musk style, he has hinted that Neuralink isn't just for those
    who are disadvantaged by disability. He clearly states that everyone
    in the future will have the procedure carried out so that they too can achieve a "symbiosis with artificial intelligence."

    No thanks. I'd let other people be the guinea pigs for Version 1.0. and
    even a few more versions beyond that.

    Somehow, I treasure the option to just tune out of all things tech when I want to. Even my home phone is *off* for 21 hours of the day: no ring and
    no messages.

    ---
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  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Ogg on Wed Aug 12 00:09:53 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Ogg to Andeddu on Tue Aug 11 2020 09:14 pm

    Who's is to say that the electronics would be immmune to interception and/ or trigger seizures or fits.

    In terms of an error or accidental situation causing problems, that's what clinical testing is for. If you mean that you're concerned about hackers, I'm really not - the average joe can already make a person go "off-line" with common sporting equipment.
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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Andeddu on Wed Aug 12 08:45:19 2020
    Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Nightfox on Tue Aug 11 2020 04:17 pm

    I can't see man merging with machine for at least a number of decades. Musk said it'll happen in a meaningful way in around 5 years, but I think he's being a little too ambitious with his time scale. We will one day

    But the question is, why? Why would we want to merge with machines? I tend to think of sci-fi things like The Matrix, the Borg from Star Trek, etc..

    Nightfox

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Nightfox on Wed Aug 12 15:20:35 2020
    Re: Neuralink
    By: Nightfox to Andeddu on Wed Aug 12 2020 08:45 am

    Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Nightfox on Tue Aug 11 2020 04:17 pm

    I can't see man merging with machine for at least a number of decades. Musk said it'll happen in a meaningful way in around 5 years, but I thi he's being a little too ambitious with his time scale. We will one day

    But the question is, why? Why would we want to merge with machines? I tend think of sci-fi things like The Matrix, the Borg from Star Trek, etc..

    Nightfox


    If I were a marketing dude I would sell it like this:

    * No need for more phones. Use your iMplant to place phone calls and send instant iMessages.
    * Use the power of iComputing by linking your brain to iBanana edge servers. Let the computer do math for you. Hell, let the comptuer THINK for you!
    * Download films directly into your brain. Wtahc them without a screen!

    etc etc etc

    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es

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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Ogg on Wed Aug 12 17:16:21 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Ogg to All on Tue Aug 11 2020 08:02 pm

    I wonder if there would be benefits to alzheimer patients.

    A silly thought experiment. A waste of time.

    I think most of his Neuralink work will be for the purposes of medical application. The big pay off is down the line when it becomes commercially viable for human use across the board.

    I agree, the simulation hypothesis is a waste of time as it can never be proven or disproven. And if we are all part of a computer simulation, it's our world so it doesn't matter. It is what it is.

    ---
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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Ogg on Wed Aug 12 17:31:15 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Ogg to Andeddu on Tue Aug 11 2020 09:14 pm

    It's a kind of invasive operation in my book.

    Who's is to say that the electronics would be immmune to interception and/ or trigger seizures or fits.

    It's all fine and dandy to imagine something like StarTrek's Borg characters, but how these wires and probes and signals that are fed to the brain will affect normal biology is another matter.

    Was it The Matrix where the characters have some sort of "plug" at the
    base of their skulls?

    I would think that the interfaces for these sorts of things would prove to be a maintenance nightmare as they would be a source of infection.

    Musk may be a tech guy, but he's not a biology guy.

    No thanks. I'd let other people be the guinea pigs for Version 1.0. and even a few more versions beyond that.

    Somehow, I treasure the option to just tune out of all things tech when I want to. Even my home phone is *off* for 21 hours of the day: no ring and
    no messages.

    The procedure is no more invasive than getting a tattoo... and looks very similar in action. Musk talks as if this is going to happen imminently however we don't have holographic terminals yet like in Minority Report or even advanced wearables such as glasses that have the power & application of a PC. I think he's on the right track with where humanity is headed, but I'd be surprised if I saw us merge with AI in my lifetime (and I am in my mid-thirties). This is stuff for around 2070-80... yes, we'll see biotic limbs controlled by the human mind, x-ray vision for people with augmented eyes... etc, but we won't see a true human/AI symbiosis until after I'm in a wooden box.

    Musk says that in order to carry out the highly technical work of the future; the jobs which haven't been automated... humans are going to have to be augmented and part of the network. Those who remain pure are going to be left behind.

    ---
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  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Nightfox on Wed Aug 12 16:23:22 2020
    Re: Neuralink
    By: Nightfox to Andeddu on Wed Aug 12 2020 08:45 am

    But the question is, why? Why would we want to merge with machines? I tend to think of sci-fi things like The Matrix, the Borg from Star Trek, etc..

    To enhance ourselves and our capabilities. We're all largely cyborgs already from a certain perspective - we've become in many cases reliant on the way we've supplemented our information storage and retrieval abilities with smartphones, we just use a detached physical connection to them rather than a hardwire of some sort. The concept and usage isn't particularly different.
    ---
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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Arelor on Wed Aug 12 15:39:43 2020
    Re: Neuralink
    By: Arelor to Nightfox on Wed Aug 12 2020 03:20 pm

    But the question is, why? Why would we want to merge with machines?
    I tend think of sci-fi things like The Matrix, the Borg from Star
    Trek, etc..

    If I were a marketing dude I would sell it like this:

    * No need for more phones. Use your iMplant to place phone calls and send instant iMessages.
    * Use the power of iComputing by linking your brain to iBanana edge servers. Let the computer do math for you. Hell, let the comptuer THINK for you! * Download films directly into your brain. Wtahc them without a screen!

    I know there could be benefits like that, but I think there are also risks with that too (physical and I suppose ethical risks too). With enhanced abilities, I'd be concerned that some poeple would start to consider such implants so useful that it could lead to situations where employers might only want to hire people who have such implants (due to their enhanced abilities and enhanced work productivity), etc., etc.. And then even if someone wanted to get such an implant, they might not be able to afford it, etc.. Sort of a class division in society. And possibly other problems too.. And I know it probably sounds silly, but it seems like a slippery slope where we might end up like the Borg (from Star Trek) some day.

    Nightfox

    ---
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  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Nightfox on Wed Aug 12 17:48:43 2020
    Re: Neuralink
    By: Nightfox to Arelor on Wed Aug 12 2020 03:39 pm

    abilities, I'd be concerned that some poeple would start to consider such implants so useful that it could lead to situations where employers might only want to hire people who have such implants (due to their enhanced abilities and enhanced work productivity), etc., etc.. And then even if

    There's already several industries that expect you to provide your own tools, or have certain technology at your disposal.
    ---
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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Underminer on Wed Aug 12 19:04:27 2020
    Re: Neuralink
    By: Underminer to Nightfox on Wed Aug 12 2020 05:48 pm

    abilities, I'd be concerned that some poeple would start to consider
    such implants so useful that it could lead to situations where
    employers might only want to hire people who have such implants (due
    to their enhanced abilities and enhanced work productivity), etc.,
    etc.. And then even if

    There's already several industries that expect you to provide your own tools, or have certain technology at your disposal.

    It seems to me that owning your own tools is different from having devices required to be implanted in your body.

    As far as providing your own tools etc., that can be a different issue. I've often thought it's a little weird that pizza restaurants often require their delivery employees to use their own personal car to deliver their pizza. I'd think a restaurant could provide its own vehicles for company use - And some actually do.

    Nightfox

    ---
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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Andeddu on Wed Aug 12 19:13:17 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Ogg on Wed Aug 12 2020 05:16 pm

    I agree, the simulation hypothesis is a waste of time as it can never be proven or disproven. And if we are all part of a computer simulation, it's our world so it doesn't matter. It is what it is.

    How do you know that could never be proven or disproven? If it happened to be a simulation as in the Matrix movies, then I'd certainly think it would be possible to prove it. Theoretical physicists have already theorized about the existence of multiple universes, and occasionally I see an article appear about a reason they think the parallel universe theory is compelling. Perhaps we'll eventually find the answer to that.

    Nightfox

    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Wed Aug 12 21:35:46 2020
    Re: Neuralink
    By: Nightfox to Andeddu on Wed Aug 12 2020 08:45 am

    Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Nightfox on Tue Aug 11 2020 04:17 pm

    I can't see man merging with machine for at least a number of
    decades. Musk said it'll happen in a meaningful way in around 5
    years, but I think he's being a little too ambitious with his time
    scale. We will one day

    But the question is, why? Why would we want to merge with machines? I tend to think of sci-fi things like The Matrix, the Borg from Star Trek, etc..

    Nightfox


    so i can watch porn all day and shoot lazer beams
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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Nightfox on Thu Aug 13 04:30:30 2020
    Re: Neuralink
    By: Nightfox to Arelor on Wed Aug 12 2020 03:39 pm

    Re: Neuralink
    By: Arelor to Nightfox on Wed Aug 12 2020 03:20 pm

    But the question is, why? Why would we want to merge with machines?
    I tend think of sci-fi things like The Matrix, the Borg from Star
    Trek, etc..

    If I were a marketing dude I would sell it like this:

    * No need for more phones. Use your iMplant to place phone calls and send instant iMessages.
    * Use the power of iComputing by linking your brain to iBanana edge servers. Let the computer do math for you. Hell, le
    the comptuer THINK for you! * Download films directly into your brain. Wtahc them without a screen!

    I know there could be benefits like that, but I think there are also risks with that too (physical and I suppose ethical ris
    too). With enhanced abilities, I'd be concerned that some poeple would start to consider such implants so useful that it co
    lead to situations where employers might only want to hire people who have such implants (due to their enhanced abilities an
    enhanced work productivity), etc., etc.. And then even if someone wanted to get such an implant, they might not be able to
    afford it, etc.. Sort of a class division in society. And possibly other problems too.. And I know it probably sounds sil
    but it seems like a slippery slope where we might end up like the Borg (from Star Trek) some day.

    Nightfox


    We won't reach that far. They will do what they always do and put crappy firmware on the implants, full of zero days and nasty
    bugs, and by the time those are discovered, most of the population will be affected and wiped out by a malicious hacker or
    unfortunate software crash.

    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Atroxi@VERT to Andeddu on Thu Aug 13 20:34:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Ogg <=-

    Re: Neuralink
    By: Ogg to Andeddu on Mon Aug 10 2020 08:20 am

    Non-invasive + surgical sound like an oxymoron. The wires are intended to pierce certain areas deep in the brain.

    From a London (CNN Business) 2019/07/17 article:

    "the devices can be used by those seeking a memory boost or by stroke victims, cancer patients, quadriplegics or others with congenital
    defects."

    Ya.. that sounds good.

    "The chips will connect to an iPhone app that the user can control."

    That DOESN'T sound too good. That's just another thing that is sure to be exploited from the outside.


    Sounds a little crazy, but this appears to be the beginning the trans- humanist experience.

    So far, it doesn't sound much different than a heart pace-maker implant,
    or the implants for diabetes patients to report blood sugar and control automatic insulin injections. Neurolink is being done in the guise of helping handicapped persons. It wouldn't be too long before it is done
    for entertainment and military purposes.

    The neuralace electrodes are inserted through the skull & stitched into the patient's brain by a robot. The implanted threads are so thin that
    no damage is caused to the brain during the procedure.

    The procedure is, of course, being sold as a benefit to mankind as an ingenius method of overcoming disabilities. Imagine prostetic
    appendages controlled via Neuralink by the power of the mind, etc...

    I read in some manifesto a few months ago how technology has always been poised to be something of a savior of the current ails of society and only later then we'd find out its banes and how oftentimes those bring more ails than the ones that we've solved.

    In true Musk style, he has hinted that Neuralink isn't just for those
    who are disadvantaged by disability. He clearly states that everyone in the future will have the procedure carried out so that they too can achieve a "symbiosis with artificial intelligence."

    Man, isn't that scary? I used to think when I was growing up that it would be cool to be a cyborg with all those computer stuff basically in one with me. But now that I'm quite aware of the implications of technology use socially, among others, I've basically done a 180 and consider any step towards "the symbiosis of man and machine" to be an ultimately debilitating one.

    ... Are you happy?
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Arelor on Thu Aug 13 16:21:00 2020
    Re: Neuralink
    By: Arelor to Nightfox on Wed Aug 12 2020 03:20 pm




    If I were a marketing dude I would sell it like this:

    * No need for more phones. Use your iMplant to place phone calls and send instant iMessages.
    * Use the power of iComputing by linking your brain to iBanana edge servers. Let the computer do math for you. Hell, let the comptuer THINK for you!
    * Download films directly into your brain. Wtahc them without a screen!

    etc etc etc


    This joke is a little dated, but anyways there are three CIO's of major tech firms sitting in a sauna, bragging about the cutting edge equipment their departments issue them to simplify their work. One CIO interrupts the
    others, places his hand on his wrist, and mentions he always has to be contact ed, so he had a pager embedded in his wrist, and the text appears as raised dots.

    A little but later, one of the CIO's perks up and places his thumb to
    his ear and begins speaking into his pinky finger. He apologizes and says
    he can't miss a call, so he had a cell phone and handset implanted in his hand .
    The last CIO is flustered, and does not want to be undone, so he excuses hi mself, leaves the sauna, and steps into the restroom. When he returns, he
    sits down for a couple of minutes, then stands up, dropping the towel, to expose a strip of toilet paper streaming from his behind. He exclaims,
    "check it out! I'm receiving a fax!"

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Nightfox on Thu Aug 13 17:13:46 2020
    Re: Neuralink
    By: Nightfox to Andeddu on Wed Aug 12 2020 08:45 am

    But the question is, why? Why would we want to merge with machines? I tend to think of sci-fi things like The Matrix, the Borg from Star Trek, etc..

    Nightfox

    I think in the short term it'll be sold as a kind of quality of life upgrade for human beings. Imagine having the ability to access data as quickly as a computer, or having the memory of an autistic savant. Humans will no longer be hindered by the brain's inability to learn anything quickly... imagine learning a new language in a day. That's the kind of potential that Musk speaks of when he talks of a a brain-machine interface. Even an a below average intellect could be elevated to the standards of geniuses today.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Arelor on Thu Aug 13 17:27:33 2020
    Re: Neuralink
    By: Arelor to Nightfox on Wed Aug 12 2020 03:20 pm

    If I were a marketing dude I would sell it like this:

    * No need for more phones. Use your iMplant to place phone calls and send instant iMessages.
    * Use the power of iComputing by linking your brain to iBanana edge servers. Let the computer do math for you. Hell, let the comptuer THINK for you!
    * Download films directly into your brain. Wtahc them without a screen!

    etc etc etc

    I recall seeing a TEDx a while ago where there was a woman speaking positively about a human-machine interface and she said something along the lines of AI, through machine learning, doing more and more of the thinking for you up until you don't have to think at all. The learning algorithim is able to adapt to your behaviour so much so that you can live your life on auto-pilot without ever having to think for yourself. I thought it sounded quite sinister.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Nightfox on Thu Aug 13 17:40:30 2020
    Re: Neuralink
    By: Nightfox to Arelor on Wed Aug 12 2020 03:39 pm

    I know there could be benefits like that, but I think there are also risks with that too (physical and I suppose ethical risks too). With enhanced abilities, I'd be concerned that some poeple would start to consider such implants so useful that it could lead to situations where employers might only want to hire people who have such implants (due to their enhanced abilities and enhanced work productivity), etc., etc.. And then even if someone wanted to get such an implant, they might not be able to afford it, etc.. Sort of a class division in society. And possibly other problems too.. And I know it probably sounds silly, but it seems like a slippery slope where we might end up like the Borg (from Star Trek) some day.

    Musk has already stated that those who choose to reject the implants will become the future proletariat. There will be a mechanical apartheid where those with the enhancements, thus providing enhanced productivity, will have the most desireable jobs in society. They'll be faster, stronger and better than the rest of the population. So yes, it looks like it will create a slippery slope as the have-nots will have to obtain such "upgrades" to compete with their peers, even if it's against their moral judgement.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Nightfox on Thu Aug 13 18:17:27 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Nightfox to Andeddu on Wed Aug 12 2020 07:13 pm

    How do you know that could never be proven or disproven? If it happened to be a simulation as in the Matrix movies, then I'd certainly think it would be possible to prove it. Theoretical physicists have already theorized about the existence of multiple universes, and occasionally I see an article appear about a reason they think the parallel universe theory is compelling. Perhaps we'll eventually find the answer to that.

    Nightfox

    We are living within the confines of the world, and these axioms are the basis of OUR reality... therefore it's pretty hard to prove or disprove such a hypothesis.

    There are things that certainly raise my eyebrows. Quantum mechanics, for instance... none of it makes any real sense. The double-slit experiment is still a mind-bender today. Other, more elaborate experminents, such as the quantum eraser experiment is even more puzzling. I am open minded enough to contemplate the reality of existence and the nature of our universe, but it's mostly philosophical and the science aspect goes way over my head.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Atroxi on Thu Aug 13 19:24:45 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Atroxi to Andeddu on Thu Aug 13 2020 08:34 pm

    I read in some manifesto a few months ago how technology has always been poised to be something of a savior of the current ails of society and only later then we'd find out its banes and how oftentimes those bring more ails than the ones that we've solved.

    Man, isn't that scary? I used to think when I was growing up that it would be cool to be a cyborg with all those computer stuff basically in one with me. But now that I'm quite aware of the implications of technology use socially, among others, I've basically done a 180 and consider any step towards "the symbiosis of man and machine" to be an ultimately debilitating one.

    It may be true that technology can bring unforeseen consequences to those who adopt it... perhaps it's better to wait for it to mature a little until the bugs iron out? I am never really an early adopter for new tech because I know that things often go wrong -- look at the Samsung Galaxy Fold... a product that's new & innovative with some major problems with its design (since overcome after being pulled from the market). Last thing I'd do is put something untested into my body until it's at least been in the public domain for several years... I'd rather let the other people volunteer as test subjects. Even simple things like VR, it's expensive and limited at the moment, but I will purchase PSVR2 which is a more mature version of the tech.

    Ultimately, the idea of transhumanism is to create mankind 2.0. I think we'll still look human, it's just that much of our thinking will be delegated to AI... which will allow us to become more egalitarian in nature, as each human will possess a similar set of characteristics to every other human.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Andeddu on Fri Aug 14 11:56:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Nightfox <=-

    Re: Neuralink
    By: Nightfox to Arelor on Wed Aug 12 2020 03:39 pm

    I know there could be benefits like that, but I think there are also risks with that too (physical and I suppose ethical risks too). With enhanced abilities, I'd be concerned that some poeple would start to consider such implants so useful that it could lead to situations where employers might only want to hire people who have such implants (due to their enhanced abilities and enhanced work productivity), etc., etc.. And then even if someone wanted to get such an implant, they might not be able to afford it, etc.. Sort of a class division in society. And possibly other problems too.. And I know it probably sounds silly, but it seems like a slippery slope where we might end up like the Borg (from Star Trek) some day.

    Musk has already stated that those who choose to reject the implants
    will become the future proletariat. There will be a mechanical
    apartheid where those with the enhancements, thus providing enhanced productivity, will have the most desireable jobs in society. They'll be faster, stronger and better than the rest of the population. So yes, it looks like it will create a slippery slope as the have-nots will have
    to obtain such "upgrades" to compete with their peers, even if it's against their moral judgement.

    Musk is off with the fairies most of the time.

    Haven't we already run this experiment? We have connected the world to the Internet. We can already see what actually happens when people have instant access to masses of produced information. People don't become smarter and more enlightened with the new information.


    ... Direct from the Ministry of Silly Walks
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Andeddu on Thu Aug 13 16:31:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Ogg on Wed Aug 12 2020 05:31 pm


    The procedure is no more invasive than getting a tattoo... and looks very similar in action. Musk talks as if this is going to happen imminently howev we don't have holographic terminals yet like in Minority Report or even advanced wearables such as glasses that have the power & application of a PC think he's on the right track with where humanity is headed, but I'd be surprised if I saw us merge with AI in my lifetime (and I am in my mid-thirties). This is stuff for around 2070-80... yes, we'll see biotic lim controlled by the human mind, x-ray vision for people with augmented eyes... etc, but we won't see a true human/AI symbiosis until after I'm in a wooden box.

    Musk says that in order to carry out the highly technical work of the future the jobs which haven't been automated... humans are going to have to be augmented and part of the network. Those who remain pure are going to be lef behind.


    This reminds me of the SyFy series Continuum from a few years back, where the main character was a police officer from the 2060's accidentally sent back in time. She had neural implants to interface with displays injected into her eyes, and they would also communicate with the technology integrated into her uniform. The suit acted as armor and camoflage, and also functioned as crime scene evidence gathering and forensics. Her side arm was also tied to her so she not only be the only person to fire it, but also choose it's power
    settings on the fly.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Nightfox on Thu Aug 13 17:27:00 2020
    Re: Neuralink
    By: Nightfox to Underminer on Wed Aug 12 2020 07:04 pm

    Re: Neuralink
    By: Underminer to Nightfox on Wed Aug 12 2020 05:48 pm

    abilities, I'd be concerned that some poeple would start to consider
    such implants so useful that it could lead to situations where
    employers might only want to hire people who have such implants (due
    to their enhanced abilities and enhanced work productivity), etc.,
    etc.. And then even if

    There's already several industries that expect you to provide your own tools, or have certain technology at your disposal.

    It seems to me that owning your own tools is different from having devices r

    As far as providing your own tools etc., that can be a different issue. I'v uld provide its own vehicles for company use - And some actually do.

    Nightfox


    In the case of using a personal vehicle on company time, mileage is normally charged at a determined rate to counter the wear and tear on the vehicle. If my work was based out of one facility, and I had to travel to another to perform a task or physically be present, I could charge mileage between facilities.

    A local vending machine company offered multiple pay options for it's drivers depending on how many sites they serviced, number of machines, and number of miles travelled in a day. The guy whose route covered several offices
    downtown would be better off charging by the site or machines, while the guy that covers the extreme edges of the coverage area visits a fraction of the si tes and travels more.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Andeddu on Thu Aug 13 21:04:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Nightfox <=-

    Re: Neuralink
    By: Nightfox to Andeddu on Wed Aug 12 2020 08:45 am

    But the question is, why? Why would we want to merge with machines? I tend to think of sci-fi things like The Matrix, the Borg from Star Trek, etc..

    I think in the short term it'll be sold as a kind of quality of
    life upgrade for human beings. Imagine having the ability to
    access data as quickly as a computer, or having the memory of an
    autistic savant. Humans will no longer be hindered by the brain's inability to learn anything quickly... imagine learning a new
    language in a day. That's the kind of potential that Musk speaks
    of when he talks of a a brain-machine interface. Even an a below
    average intellect could be elevated to the standards of geniuses
    today.

    And you think that is a Good Thing...?



    ... Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Andeddu on Thu Aug 13 21:07:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Ultimately, the idea of transhumanism is to create mankind 2.0. I
    think we'll still look human, it's just that much of our thinking
    will be delegated to AI... which will allow us to become more
    egalitarian in nature, as each human will possess a similar set
    of characteristics to every other human.

    I hope there are enough smart people left to fight (to the death)
    to prevent such a thing. Screw that garbage.



    ... If it weren't for Edison we'd be using computers by candlelight
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Andeddu on Fri Aug 14 13:54:00 2020
    On 08-13-20 19:24, Andeddu wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Ultimately, the idea of transhumanism is to create mankind 2.0. I think we'll still look human, it's just that much of our thinking will be delegated to AI... which will allow us to become more egalitarian in nature, as each human will possess a similar set of characteristics to every other human.

    Hmm, do we really want that? That actually sounds like a rather bland outcome. :/


    ... You're sick, sick, sick. How can you continue to write such drivel?
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Gamgee on Fri Aug 14 13:55:00 2020
    On 08-13-20 21:04, Gamgee wrote to Andeddu <=-

    of when he talks of a a brain-machine interface. Even an a below
    average intellect could be elevated to the standards of geniuses
    today.

    And you think that is a Good Thing...?

    Intellect is one thing, but there's something else needed to temper that intellect that I doubt technology can give us - wisdom.


    ... GUI: a set of pretty pictures to amuse the illiterate
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Ogg@VERT/EOTLBBS to All on Fri Aug 14 00:22:00 2020
    Hello Andeddu!

    ** On Thursday 13.08.20 - 14:24, andeddu wrote to Atroxi:

    Ultimately, the idea of transhumanism is to create mankind 2.0. I
    think we'll still look human, it's just that much of our thinking will
    be delegated to AI... which will allow us to become more egalitarian
    in nature, as each human will possess a similar set of characteristics
    to every other human.

    Does the ultimate idea of transhumanism include removing human will? It seems to me that "idea" is missing the little detail that humans will want
    to retain their own will. To engineer people "to become more egalitarian" via technology is simply not natural or not possible - or does
    transhumanism include injecting people with drugs to make them submit to being easily controlled?

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Vk3jed on Thu Aug 13 22:07:41 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Vk3jed to Andeddu on Fri Aug 14 2020 01:54 pm

    Ultimately, the idea of transhumanism is to create mankind 2.0. I
    think we'll still look human, it's just that much of our thinking
    will be delegated to AI... which will allow us to become more
    egalitarian in nature, as each human will possess a similar set of
    characteristics to every other human.

    Hmm, do we really want that? That actually sounds like a rather bland outcome. :/

    I agree. I don't think we'd want to "outsource" our thinking to machines. I think we'd become too dependent on machines; I think we should still be able to think for ourselves. That's what we have a brain for (and people who are religiously-inclined would probably say God gave us the gift of a brain to be able to think, and it would be a shame to waste it).

    Nightfox

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Gamgee on Thu Aug 13 23:27:23 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Gamgee to Andeddu on Thu Aug 13 2020 09:07 pm

    I hope there are enough smart people left to fight (to the death)
    to prevent such a thing. Screw that garbage.

    You prefer to deal with morons on a daily basis?
    ---
    Underminer
    The Undermine BBS - bbs.undermine.ca:423
    Fidonet: 1:342/17
    ---
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  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Vk3jed on Thu Aug 13 23:32:54 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Vk3jed to Andeddu on Fri Aug 14 2020 01:54 pm

    egalitarian in nature, as each human will possess a similar set of
    characteristics to every other human.
    Hmm, do we really want that? That actually sounds like a rather bland outcome. :/

    I mean, it's about the only way to truly achieve equality. As much as I fully believe everyone has an equal right to a certain quality of life, and we should all be considered equally worthy of dignity, opportunities for happiness, etc. - let's face it, humans are not all equal.
    ---
    Underminer
    The Undermine BBS - bbs.undermine.ca:423
    Fidonet: 1:342/17
    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Andeddu on Fri Aug 14 02:10:00 2020
    Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Nightfox on Thu Aug 13 2020 05:40 pm


    Musk has already stated that those who choose to reject the implants will become the future proletariat. There will be a mechanical apartheid where th with the enhancements, thus providing enhanced productivity, will have the m desireable jobs in society. They'll be faster, stronger and better than the rest of the population. So yes, it looks like it will create a slippery slop as the have-nots will have to obtain such "upgrades" to compete with their peers, even if it's against their moral judgement.

    There's an Outer Limits episode about a guy who can't get a netowrk implant be cause he experienced a head injury early in life, and since he can oly
    acquire knowledge is through reading, he gets a menial job mopping floors at
    a library that is scanning the last remainder of it's books into the
    mainframe everyone else is connected through. He begins to notice people occasionally "freeze" for no apparent reason, or stutter, and from what he
    has been reading in the main computer's manual, that is a sign of an
    impending disaster. He learns he cannot tell anyone, because anything one person knows, the system will know as well as everyone on the system. So has to be clever in reaching a terminal to run the shutdown codes. When he can't reach a terminal, he plans to show the page with the shutdown code on it to somebody. The book gets destroyed, however his true gift was a photographic m emory, and tricks his girlfriend into reading the code from a strip of paper.

    The system grinds to a halt, then suddenly he becomes real important because he's the only person who can teach others how to read.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Andeddu on Fri Aug 14 03:05:33 2020
    Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Arelor on Thu Aug 13 2020 05:27 pm

    Re: Neuralink
    By: Arelor to Nightfox on Wed Aug 12 2020 03:20 pm

    If I were a marketing dude I would sell it like this:

    * No need for more phones. Use your iMplant to place phone calls and send instant iMessages.
    * Use the power of iComputing by linking your brain to iBanana edge servers. Let the computer do math for you. Hell, let
    comptuer THINK for you!
    * Download films directly into your brain. Wtahc them without a screen!

    etc etc etc

    I recall seeing a TEDx a while ago where there was a woman speaking positively about a human-machine interface and she said
    something along the lines of AI, through machine learning, doing more and more of the thinking for you up until you don't ha
    to think at all. The learning algorithim is able to adapt to your behaviour so much so that you can live your life on
    auto-pilot without ever having to think for yourself. I thought it sounded quite sinister.


    Speaking of which, I recomend you all to watch the Upgrade film. It is about a quadraplejic who gets inserted cyborg implants
    in order to walk again and begins a crusade to find the bastards that sent him to the wheelchair in the first place. Heavily
    related to the matter at hand.

    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Nightfox on Fri Aug 14 03:21:10 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Nightfox to Vk3jed on Thu Aug 13 2020 10:07 pm

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Vk3jed to Andeddu on Fri Aug 14 2020 01:54 pm

    Ultimately, the idea of transhumanism is to create mankind 2.0. I
    think we'll still look human, it's just that much of our thinking
    will be delegated to AI... which will allow us to become more
    egalitarian in nature, as each human will possess a similar set of
    characteristics to every other human.

    Hmm, do we really want that? That actually sounds like a rather bland outcome. :/

    I agree. I don't think we'd want to "outsource" our thinking to machines. I think we'd become too dependent on machines; I
    think we should still be able to think for ourselves. That's what we have a brain for (and people who are religiously-incli
    would probably say God gave us the gift of a brain to be able to think, and it would be a shame to waste it).

    Nightfox


    Empiric evidence suggest people is already outsourcing their thinking to technology.

    If it became ever viable, the masses would outsource 100% of it.

    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Underminer on Fri Aug 14 03:23:16 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Underminer to Vk3jed on Thu Aug 13 2020 11:32 pm

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Vk3jed to Andeddu on Fri Aug 14 2020 01:54 pm

    egalitarian in nature, as each human will possess a similar set of
    characteristics to every other human.
    Hmm, do we really want that? That actually sounds like a rather bland outcome. :/

    I mean, it's about the only way to truly achieve equality. As much as I fully believe everyone has an equal right to a certa
    quality of life, and we should all be considered equally worthy of dignity, opportunities for happiness, etc. - let's face i
    humans are not all equal.

    Not everybody thinks making every human a clone of each other is a worthy goal. Pure egalitarianism is not an end goal for a
    lot of people.

    What was all this talking about diversity and people with different capabilities contributing to society with different points
    of view and skills? Do you have a problem with diversity?

    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Nightfox on Fri Aug 14 18:50:00 2020
    On 08-13-20 22:07, Nightfox wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Hmm, do we really want that? That actually sounds like a rather bland outcome. :/

    I agree. I don't think we'd want to "outsource" our thinking to
    machines. I think we'd become too dependent on machines; I think we should still be able to think for ourselves. That's what we have a
    brain for (and people who are religiously-inclined would probably say
    God gave us the gift of a brain to be able to think, and it would be a shame to waste it).

    I have nothing against being able to augment our thinking and offload more process/procedural activities to machines - we effectively do this already, every time we use a computer to calculate, simulate or whatever. But I'd still want to be in charge of the process.


    ... But if I kill him, it would start a war.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Underminer on Fri Aug 14 18:53:00 2020
    On 08-13-20 23:32, Underminer wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Hmm, do we really want that? That actually sounds like a rather bland outcome. :/

    I mean, it's about the only way to truly achieve equality. As much as I

    You may have a point that's technically correct, but philosophically repugnant. :)

    fully believe everyone has an equal right to a certain quality of life, and we should all be considered equally worthy of dignity,
    opportunities for happiness, etc. - let's face it, humans are not all equal. ---

    It's managing difference that is one of our biggest challenges, and we're doing a pretty piss poor job of it so far. :/


    ... Should I weed the lawn or say it's a garden?
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    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Arelor on Fri Aug 14 06:31:59 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Arelor to Underminer on Fri Aug 14 2020 03:23 am

    What was all this talking about diversity and people with different capabilities contributing to society with different points of view and skills? Do you have a problem with diversity?

    Not in the least. Just pointing out that for those who claim equality is the goal, but actually equalizing people is bad or boring that there's a logical disconnect happening ;)
    ---
    Underminer
    The Undermine BBS - bbs.undermine.ca:423
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Underminer on Fri Aug 14 07:52:00 2020
    Underminer wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Gamgee to Andeddu on Thu Aug 13 2020 09:07 pm

    I hope there are enough smart people left to fight (to the death)
    to prevent such a thing. Screw that garbage.

    You prefer to deal with morons on a daily basis?

    No.... did I say that?

    Nice job at snipping out all the context, though.



    ... Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever.
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Vk3jed on Fri Aug 14 07:54:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Gamgee <=-

    On 08-13-20 21:04, Gamgee wrote to Andeddu <=-

    of when he talks of a a brain-machine interface. Even an a below
    average intellect could be elevated to the standards of geniuses
    today.

    And you think that is a Good Thing...?

    Intellect is one thing, but there's something else needed to
    temper that intellect that I doubt technology can give us -
    wisdom.

    Exactly, and other things too, like experience and judgement.



    ... If it weren't for Edison we'd be using computers by candlelight
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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Moondog on Fri Aug 14 08:55:55 2020
    Re: Neuralink
    By: Moondog to Andeddu on Fri Aug 14 2020 02:10 am

    There's an Outer Limits episode about a guy who can't get a netowrk implant be cause he experienced a head injury early in life, and since he can oly acquire knowledge is through reading, he gets a menial job mopping floors at a library that is scanning the last remainder of it's books into the mainframe everyone else is connected through. He begins to notice people occasionally "freeze" for no apparent reason, or stutter, and from what he has been reading in the main computer's manual, that is a sign of an impending disaster. He learns he cannot tell anyone, because anything one person knows, the system will know as well as everyone on the system. So has to be clever in reaching a terminal to run the shutdown codes. When he can't reach a terminal, he plans to show the page with the shutdown code on it to somebody. The book gets destroyed, however his true gift was a photographic m emory, and tricks his girlfriend into reading the code from a strip of paper.

    The system grinds to a halt, then suddenly he becomes real important because he's the only person who can teach others how to read.

    Things like that are why I don't really think it's a good idea to become too dependent on technology. It probably sounds a bit ironic coming from me since I'm a software engineer and I like playing with computers & gadgets & things, but I think there's a limit to how far we should let it go into our lives. I think we have done great things with computers, but I think we should also still be fairly self-reliant if we need to. Something as simple as the power going out could cripple us if we're too dependent on technology.

    Nightfox

    ---
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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Underminer on Fri Aug 14 09:00:15 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Underminer to Arelor on Fri Aug 14 2020 06:31 am

    Not in the least. Just pointing out that for those who claim equality is the goal, but actually equalizing people is bad or boring that there's a logical disconnect happening ;)

    When people talk about equality, I've always thought it meant equal rights, not necessarily equal traits. Everyone should have an equal right to have the same opportunities in life, occupy the same spaces, etc.. I think that's what human equality is all about. Not necessarily making everyone the same.

    Nightfox

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Rampage@VERT/SESTAR to Arelor on Fri Aug 14 16:33:12 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Arelor to Nightfox on Fri Aug 14 2020 03:21:10

    Arelor> Empiric evidence suggest people is already outsourcing their thinking to technology.

    perfect example is how so many use the calculator in their phone for math instead of doing the math in their head... does this mean that calculators are the beginning of the end? ;)


    )\/(ark

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  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Nightfox on Fri Aug 14 15:49:29 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Nightfox to Underminer on Fri Aug 14 2020 09:00 am

    When people talk about equality, I've always thought it meant equal rights, not necessarily equal traits. Everyone should have an equal right to have the same opportunities in life, occupy the same spaces, etc.. I think that's what human equality is all about. Not necessarily making everyone the same.

    I have most definitely heard people claim that everyone IS equal, and thus any difference in outcome in the lives of two people is due to systematic issues or inequality. And even less extreme examples of that line of thought have a great many people suggesting we should be striving for equality of outcome. There's no way to get to that point without either unfairly restricting some members of society, or finding a way to actually make everyone "equal," 'cause, brother, we aint.

    Don't get me wrong, there absolutely still are systematic societal injustices and prejudices present in society, it's just simply pointing at a difference in outcome between any two random people does not necessarily indicate such.
    ---
    Underminer
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    Fidonet: 1:342/17
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  • From Warpslide@VERT/NRBBS to Rampage on Fri Aug 14 19:49:00 2020
    On 14 Aug 2020, Rampage said the following...

    perfect example is how so many use the calculator in their phone for math d of doing the math in their head... does this mean that calculators are t inning of the end? ;)

    I've never been able to do math in my head, especially when I'm put on the spot.

    I always remember my teachers saying "you can't always have a calculator with you!" but smart phones proved that wrong. Combine that with always paying
    with a bank card & we no longer need to make change.

    Jay

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/06 (Windows/32)
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  • From Hatton@VERT/THRCORN to Nightfox on Fri Aug 14 23:24:54 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Nightfox to Underminer on Fri Aug 14 2020 09:00 am

    Not in the least. Just pointing out that for those who claim
    equality is the goal, but actually equalizing people is bad or
    boring that there's a logical disconnect happening ;)

    When people talk about equality, I've always thought it meant equal rights, not necessarily equal traits. Everyone should have an equal right to have the same opportunities in life, occupy the same spaces, etc.. I think that's what human equality is all about. Not necessarily making everyone the same.

    There has been a debate raging for decades on whether "equality" means equal access to opportunities or forcing equal outcomes.

    ... The world looks as if it has been left in the custody of trolls.

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Warpslide on Fri Aug 14 17:17:59 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Warpslide to Rampage on Fri Aug 14 2020 07:49 pm

    I always remember my teachers saying "you can't always have a calculator with you!" but smart phones proved that wrong. Combine that with always paying with a bank card & we no longer need to make change.

    It's still possible for your phone battery to die out and need a recharge. ;) But I see what you mean. I don't like to always have to rely on technology though. Sometimes it can be easy to get in the habit of pulling out your phone calculator for even simple math that you could do in your head faster than using your phone calculator..

    Nightfox

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Ogg@VERT/EOTLBBS to All on Fri Aug 14 21:23:00 2020
    Hello Andeddu!

    ** On Thursday 13.08.20 - 12:13, andeddu wrote to Nightfox:

    I think in the short term it'll be sold as a kind of quality of life upgrade for human beings. Imagine having the ability to access data as quickly as a computer, or having the memory of an autistic savant.

    WHERE is this data going to come from? The internet?


    Humans will no longer be hindered by the brain's inability to learn anything quickly... imagine learning a new language in a day. That's
    the kind of potential that Musk speaks of when he talks of a a brain- machine interface. Even an a below average intellect could be elevated
    to the standards of geniuses today.

    What happens if the servers get corrupted with false information, or if
    they go down?

    What happens when the electric grid goes down?

    Dependency on simple point of sale systems and processing a payment are a problem when the electric grid goes down, even for just a few minutes.

    The high-technology of neural implants will be useless when someone pulls
    the plug, literally.

    ---
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  • From Ogg@VERT/EOTLBBS to Andeddu on Fri Aug 14 21:34:00 2020
    Hello Andeddu!

    ** On Wednesday 12.08.20 - 12:31, andeddu wrote to Ogg:

    Musk says that in order to carry out the highly technical work of the future; the jobs which haven't been automated... humans are going to
    have to be augmented and part of the network. Those who remain pure
    are going to be left behind.

    The "network" can fail. I posit that those who are "pure" (no implants) could be highly desirable to intercede (and thus valuable) to fix or
    override a problem.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Ogg@VERT/EOTLBBS to Underminer on Fri Aug 14 21:47:00 2020
    Hello Underminer!

    ** On Wednesday 12.08.20 - 02:09, underminer wrote to Ogg:

    Who's is to say that the electronics would be immmune to interception
    and/ or trigger seizures or fits.

    In terms of an error or accidental situation causing problems, that's
    what clinical testing is for. If you mean that you're concerned about hackers, I'm really not - the average joe can already make a person go "off-line" with common sporting equipment. -+-

    Do you mean like a tin-foil lined helmet? :)

    Would you want to wear that common sporting equipment until the network is safe? You probably would have to take if off for a shower or a haircut.

    Our bodies are not meant to be deeply augmented with technology like the fictional writers depict. We have to take anti-rejection drugs and blood thinners to counteract the body's natural detendency to eliminate what it perceives to be an invasion.

    AND, the tech/body interface is highly prone to infection. Just ask
    people who've had feeding tubes connected to their stomach.

    Musk's projects are not entirely funded by him. He gets investors and/or government funds. The whole process is just a research playground to experiment with new things and new possibilities. In the process,
    something "new" may arise that could be patented. THAT is the name of the game.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Dennisk on Sat Aug 15 00:50:37 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Fri Aug 14 2020 11:56 am

    Musk is off with the fairies most of the time.

    Haven't we already run this experiment? We have connected the world to the Internet. We can already see what actually happens when people have instant access to masses of produced information. People don't become smarter and more enlightened with the new information.

    If anything the ease of access to information has made us less enlightened and thicker, as we no longer have to actually learn anything because our smartphones can do all the thinking for us.

    Musk is talking about a "symbiosis between man and machine"... it's not the same as having something like the internet. Once we have a human-AI interface, the machine aspect of your mind will do much of the low-level processing required by your brain -- things like memorising, rote learning, etc... will become a thing of the past. There's also a suggestion we will become smarter, with chips that'll boost our intellectual capabilities, allowing us to learn entire languages within days and the ability to carry out complex calculations with ease. This kind of tech seems so far away, I'll be long in the ground before anything resembling true symbiosis comes to light.

    ---
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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Moondog on Sat Aug 15 00:55:59 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Moondog to Andeddu on Thu Aug 13 2020 04:31 pm

    This reminds me of the SyFy series Continuum from a few years back, where the main character was a police officer from the 2060's accidentally sent back in time. She had neural implants to interface with displays injected into her eyes, and they would also communicate with the technology integrated into her uniform. The suit acted as armor and camoflage, and also functioned as crime scene evidence gathering and forensics. Her side arm was also tied to her so she not only be the only person to fire it, but also choose it's power
    settings on the fly.

    There's a lot of foreshadowing on movies/shows... I think writers tend to consult with technologists, futurists and scientists asking them what they think the worlds going to be like in 50 or so years from the present day.

    ---
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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Gamgee on Sat Aug 15 01:44:15 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Gamgee to Andeddu on Thu Aug 13 2020 09:04 pm

    I think in the short term it'll be sold as a kind of quality of
    life upgrade for human beings. Imagine having the ability to
    access data as quickly as a computer, or having the memory of an autistic savant. Humans will no longer be hindered by the brain's inability to learn anything quickly... imagine learning a new
    language in a day. That's the kind of potential that Musk speaks
    of when he talks of a a brain-machine interface. Even an a below average intellect could be elevated to the standards of geniuses
    today.

    And you think that is a Good Thing...?

    It's good in the sense that it'll improve our chances of one day becoming a spacefaring species, bad in the sense that we'll lose our humanity.

    ---
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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Vk3jed on Sat Aug 15 01:52:02 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Vk3jed to Andeddu on Fri Aug 14 2020 01:54 pm

    Hmm, ☼do we really want that? That actually sounds like a rather bland outcome. :/

    I think the idea is that we'll lose our individualism to become a very efficient collective. All those sci-fi movies you've watched where humanity is at peace, it's because we've sacrificed our individual beliefs and identitiy to become a unified collective. I believe this may be the case by the end of the century.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Ogg on Sat Aug 15 02:12:01 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Ogg to All on Fri Aug 14 2020 12:22 am

    Does the ultimate idea of transhumanism include removing human will? It seems to me that "idea" is missing the little detail that humans will want to retain their own will. To engineer people "to become more egalitarian" via technology is simply not natural or not possible - or does
    transhumanism include injecting people with drugs to make them submit to being easily controlled?

    Free will creates creatures that can go either wrong or right. As C.S. Lewis said "if a thing is free to be good, it can also be free to be bad - and free will is what has made evil possible."

    Is a "world of autometa, of creatures that work like machines" a world worth creating? I think technocrats like Musk believe so. It's the only way mankind, as a species, will ever be able to move in one direction.

    At its core, transhumanism is humanity's journey from organic beings into creatures of silicon. Our transformation will be complete once consciousness can be digitised... at which point we can then fully shed our biological form.

    ---
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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Nightfox on Sat Aug 15 02:31:24 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Nightfox to Underminer on Fri Aug 14 2020 09:00 am

    When people talk about equality, I've always thought it meant equal rights, not necessarily equal traits. Everyone should have an equal right to have the same opportunities in life, occupy the same spaces, etc.. I think that's what human equality is all about. Not necessarily making everyone the same.

    I guess the only unalienable right we have is that we are all judged equally before the law.

    The idea of equal opportunities is nice, but it can never truly be implemented.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Andeddu on Fri Aug 14 21:48:38 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Vk3jed on Sat Aug 15 2020 01:52 am

    I think the idea is that we'll lose our individualism to become a very efficient collective. All those sci-fi movies you've watched where humanity is at peace, it's because we've sacrificed our individual beliefs and identitiy to become a unified collective. I believe this may be the case by the end of the century.

    What movies? I'm only really thinking the Borg from Star Trek here.. And why would we want to lose our individualism and become a collective?

    Nightfox

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Andeddu on Fri Aug 14 21:50:24 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Ogg on Sat Aug 15 2020 02:12 am

    At its core, transhumanism is humanity's journey from organic beings into creatures of silicon. Our transformation will be complete once consciousness can be digitised... at which point we can then fully shed our biological form.

    I think we have a ways to go before we fully understand if human-made machines with AI are (or can be) really alive and have sentience or not.. But I'm still wondering why we'd want to do that.

    Nightfox

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Ogg on Sat Aug 15 00:23:39 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Ogg to Underminer on Fri Aug 14 2020 09:47 pm

    concerned about hackers, I'm really not - the average joe can
    already make a person go "off-line" with common sporting equipment.
    -+-
    Do you mean like a tin-foil lined helmet? :)
    Would you want to wear that common sporting equipment until the network is safe? You probably would have to take if off for a shower or a haircut.

    No, I don't mean you can protect yourself against hackers with sporting goods if you get augmented - I mean something as simple as a baseball bat or golf club can take the present modern un-augmented human "off-line" with less effort than a hacker would have to put in.

    Similarly people are concerned about whether hackers might be able to make a self driving car veer into the wrong lane or similar - well go throw some traffic cones around right now that direct people into the oncoming lane and I'm pretty sure you'll accomplish the same thing with meat based drivers.

    There are absolutely concerns about upcoming technology, but none of it makes it appreciably easier to do bad things to someone on an individual level. We're already pretty fragile and easy to "hack"
    ---
    Underminer
    The Undermine BBS - bbs.undermine.ca:423
    Fidonet: 1:342/17
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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Andeddu on Sat Aug 15 17:10:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Fri Aug 14 2020 11:56 am

    Musk is off with the fairies most of the time.

    Haven't we already run this experiment? We have connected the world to the Internet. We can already see what actually happens when people have instant access to masses of produced information. People don't become smarter and more enlightened with the new information.

    If anything the ease of access to information has made us less
    enlightened and thicker, as we no longer have to actually learn
    anything because our smartphones can do all the thinking for us.

    Musk is talking about a "symbiosis between man and machine"... it's not the same as having something like the internet. Once we have a human-AI interface, the machine aspect of your mind will do much of the
    low-level processing required by your brain -- things like memorising, rote learning, etc... will become a thing of the past. There's also a suggestion we will become smarter, with chips that'll boost our intellectual capabilities, allowing us to learn entire languages within days and the ability to carry out complex calculations with ease. This kind of tech seems so far away, I'll be long in the ground before
    anything resembling true symbiosis comes to light.

    We don't understand the mind well enough to know if this well work, and even if we could increase rote capabilities, would it make us more intelligent?

    I think technophiles take a very limited, and myopic view of what intelligence is, and what mental abilities we need in order to create a great civilisation.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Nightfox on Sat Aug 15 01:31:00 2020
    Re: Neuralink
    By: Nightfox to Moondog on Fri Aug 14 2020 08:55 am



    Things like that are why I don't really think it's a good idea to become too a limit to how far we should let it go into our lives. I think we have done endent on technology.

    Nightfox


    Imagine how life would change if a solar flare acted as an EMP and fried the majority of electronics on Earth. Even some of the simplest items have some sort of solid state regulator or components that may not survive such a hit. Modrn batteries have solid state ICS to help in charging or protecting it's cells from over charging.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Nightfox on Sat Aug 15 04:10:06 2020
    Re: Neuralink
    By: Nightfox to Moondog on Fri Aug 14 2020 08:55 am

    Re: Neuralink
    By: Moondog to Andeddu on Fri Aug 14 2020 02:10 am

    There's an Outer Limits episode about a guy who can't get a netowrk implant be cause he experienced a head injury early in life, and since he can oly acquire
    knowledge is through reading, he gets a menial job mopping floors at a library that is scanning the last remainder of it's books into the mainframe everyone else
    connected through. He begins to notice people occasionally "freeze" for no apparent reason, or stutter, and from what he has been reading in the main computer's
    manual, that is a sign of an impending disaster. He learns he cannot tell anyone, because anything one person knows, the system will know as well as everyone on
    system. So has to be clever in reaching a terminal to run the shutdown codes. When he can't reach a terminal, he plans to show the page with the shutdown code on
    to somebody. The book gets destroyed, however his true gift was a photographic m emory, and tricks his girlfriend into reading the code from a strip of paper.

    The system grinds to a halt, then suddenly he becomes real important because he's the only person who can teach others how to read.

    Things like that are why I don't really think it's a good idea to become too dependent on technology. It probably sounds a bit ironic coming from me since I'm a
    software engineer and I like playing with computers & gadgets & things, but I think there's a limit to how far we should let it go into our lives. I think we have do
    great things with computers, but I think we should also still be fairly self-reliant if we need to. Something as simple as the power going out could cripple us if we
    too dependent on technology.

    Nightfox


    It means something when microchip-heads claim they don't want microchips everywhere.

    I am an engineer and there are things that are better left unautomated. I have had so many automated doors malfunction and dent a car or release the dogs.

    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Andeddu on Sat Aug 15 04:21:03 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Ogg on Sat Aug 15 2020 02:12 am

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Ogg to All on Fri Aug 14 2020 12:22 am

    Does the ultimate idea of transhumanism include removing human will? It seems to me that "idea" is missing the little detail that humans will want to retain their
    own will. To engineer people "to become more egalitarian" via technology is simply not natural or not possible - or does
    transhumanism include injecting people with drugs to make them submit to being easily controlled?

    Free will creates creatures that can go either wrong or right. As C.S. Lewis said "if a thing is free to be good, it can also be free to be bad - and free will is wha
    has made evil possible."

    Is a "world of autometa, of creatures that work like machines" a world worth creating? I think technocrats like Musk believe so. It's the only way mankind, as a speci
    will ever be able to move in one direction.

    At its core, transhumanism is humanity's journey from organic beings into creatures of silicon. Our transformation will be complete once consciousness can be
    digitised... at which point we can then fully shed our biological form.


    Free will makes evil possible, but also makes good possible.

    Claiming that surrendering free will in order to achieve peace is a worthwhile price is like claiming that bending knee to a maniacal tyrant is a worthwhile price. Sure,
    there would have not been a WWII if everybody had bent knee to Hitler. There would have been a decade of genetic cleansing and then everybody would have lived in peace
    under his boot.


    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Underminer on Sat Aug 15 04:25:47 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Underminer to Ogg on Sat Aug 15 2020 12:23 am

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Ogg to Underminer on Fri Aug 14 2020 09:47 pm

    concerned about hackers, I'm really not - the average joe can
    already make a person go "off-line" with common sporting equipment.
    -+-
    Do you mean like a tin-foil lined helmet? :)
    Would you want to wear that common sporting equipment until the network is safe? You probably would have to take if off for a shower or a haircut.

    No, I don't mean you can protect yourself against hackers with sporting goods if you get augmented - I mean something as simple as a baseball bat or golf club can tak
    the present modern un-augmented human "off-line" with less effort than a hacker would have to put in.

    Similarly people are concerned about whether hackers might be able to make a self driving car veer into the wrong lane or similar - well go throw some traffic cones
    around right now that direct people into the oncoming lane and I'm pretty sure you'll accomplish the same thing with meat based drivers.

    There are absolutely concerns about upcoming technology, but none of it makes it appreciably easier to do bad things to someone on an individual level. We're already
    pretty fragile and easy to "hack"

    Computers are much more fragile than healthy humans.

    It is simple stats. If a human has a chance of non-failing of A, and a microcontroler has a cheance of not failing of B, the chance of a human with a microcontroller not
    failing is AxB, which happens to be a small number.

    This is the first thing we taught us in Engineering college about long-term machine survival and statistics. The more pieces a system has, the more likely it is a piece
    will break.

    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Moondog on Sat Aug 15 10:29:13 2020
    Re: Neuralink
    By: Moondog to Nightfox on Sat Aug 15 2020 01:31 am

    Imagine how life would change if a solar flare acted as an EMP and fried the majority of electronics on Earth. Even some of the simplest items have some sort of solid state regulator or components that may not survive such a hit. Modrn batteries have solid state ICS to help in charging or protecting it's cells from over charging.

    That would be one of the dangers of implanting electronic devices in our bodies.

    Nightfox

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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Hatton on Sat Aug 15 16:43:24 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Hatton to Nightfox on Fri Aug 14 2020 11:24 pm

    There has been a debate raging for decades on whether "equality" means equal access to opportunities or forcing equal outcomes.

    By forcing equal outcomes, you end up with communism. We are all different and we all have our strengths and weaknesses, and some people have more strengths and others have more weaknesses. It's just like in the animal kingdom.

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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Ogg on Sat Aug 15 16:54:16 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Ogg to All on Fri Aug 14 2020 09:23 pm

    WHERE is this data going to come from? The internet?

    What happens if the servers get corrupted with false information, or if
    they go down?

    What happens when the electric grid goes down?

    Dependency on simple point of sale systems and processing a payment are a problem when the electric grid goes down, even for just a few minutes.

    The high-technology of neural implants will be useless when someone pulls the plug, literally.

    Yes, we are going to be hooked up to some kind of internet with the intention of us, as humans, joining a hivemind. I am sure there will be failsafes, as this kind of development won't happen until the end of the century... if everything shutdown, I guess we'd just become mere humans again...

    It's a strange idea for the future of man, and it's completely alien to most folk... but we are at a time where a single madman with power has the ability to cause a nuclear holocaust at the push of a button. The natural progression of technology is that we merge with it... even professor Stephen Hawking could see that.

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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Ogg on Sat Aug 15 17:04:15 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Ogg to Andeddu on Fri Aug 14 2020 09:34 pm

    The "network" can fail. I posit that those who are "pure" (no implants) could be highly desirable to intercede (and thus valuable) to fix or override a problem.

    Quite possible. There may be a fair number of those who are opposed to implants all together and view it as the "mark of the devil" as the human body (perfection, in other words) is not to be desecrated in such a fashion.

    If network instability is such a thing in circa 2100, I can see such a plan floundering. The network needs to be perfect and it needs to be maintained at all times, otherwise the entire system is vulnerable to attack.

    Imagine relying on a computer to do all of your low-level processing, such as structuring a sentence, and then being completely shut-off from the network after it goes offline. I think people would struggle to communicate with each other thereafter. We'd be like little babies all over again, unable to articulate anything until the network's brought back online.

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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Ogg on Sat Aug 15 17:09:31 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Ogg to Underminer on Fri Aug 14 2020 09:47 pm

    Our bodies are not meant to be deeply augmented with technology like the fictional writers depict. We have to take anti-rejection drugs and blood thinners to counteract the body's natural detendency to eliminate what it perceives to be an invasion.

    AND, the tech/body interface is highly prone to infection. Just ask
    people who've had feeding tubes connected to their stomach.

    You have to remember that all this is relatively new. It wasn't long ago we had people with rubber hands and peg-legs. Technology has come a long way in only two decades, imagine where we will be 80 years from now. I agree that we will have to be on some kind of drug to prevent the body from rejecting our new limbs/implants... whichever big pharma firm secures that patent will become very powerful indeed.

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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Nightfox on Sat Aug 15 17:33:02 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Nightfox to Andeddu on Fri Aug 14 2020 09:48 pm

    What movies? I'm only really thinking the Borg from Star Trek here.. And why would we want to lose our individualism and become a collective?

    Don't the humans in Star Trek belong to the United Federation which Earth, as a nationless planet ruled by a World Government, is a part of? It's the same in films and shows like Serenity, Firefly and Starship Troopers, where Earth is depicted as a United Federation. There are many other examples of humanity acting as a collective but they elude me right now.

    The point I am trying to make is that by being individuals with completely seperate belief structures, we cannot progress as a civilisation. Everybody has to be on the same page and everybody has to walk in the same direction. This can be forced via a dictitorial World Government, brain washing or by merging us with a machine-interface to create a hive-mind.

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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Nightfox on Sat Aug 15 17:51:28 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Nightfox to Andeddu on Fri Aug 14 2020 09:50 pm

    I think we have a ways to go before we fully understand if human-made machines with AI are (or can be) really alive and have sentience or not.. But I'm still wondering why we'd want to do that.

    "I think therefore I am" - Descartes

    Any creature capable of any form of thought necessarily exists, and I believe this extends to silicon based beings as well.

    Man has been playing God for a while now. I believe evolution is now in OUR hands, not necesarily in the hands of nature. Imagine a cybernetic species capable of bypassing the development stage of "baby". Babies never discovered anything important, they've never contributed anything... think of all the resources consumed over 16 years of developmental life where we, as fleshy organic humans, produce almost nothing of tangible importance. If we can digitise consciousness, we can create fully grown bodies implanted with consciousness which, as part of a hive-mind, are as clever and as knowledgable (as they take their first breath) as any other member of their species.

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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Underminer on Sat Aug 15 17:57:46 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Underminer to Ogg on Sat Aug 15 2020 12:23 am

    No, I don't mean you can protect yourself against hackers with sporting goods if you get augmented - I mean something as simple as a baseball bat or golf club can take the present modern un-augmented human "off-line" with less effort than a hacker would have to put in.

    Your original comment almost made me spit out my coffee, hilarious! I agree, as vulnerable as any high-tech system can be to high-tech attacks, so too can low-tech systems be vulnerable to low-tech attacks.

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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Dennisk on Sat Aug 15 18:13:35 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Sat Aug 15 2020 05:10 pm

    We don't understand the mind well enough to know if this well work, and even if we could increase rote capabilities, would it make us more intelligent?

    I think technophiles take a very limited, and myopic view of what intelligence is, and what mental abilities we need in order to create a great civilisation.

    The idea that we're going to improve the intellectual capabilities of individual humans via implants is theory only. A low-level symbiosis is possible, however. Experiments show that we can move electronics with the mind alone with patients able to move individual fingers on a robotic hand, and drink water from a cup, etc... same with people who are able to walk with advanced prostetic legs. These technologies will improve over my lifetime and will become superior to our own biological limbs in the not too distant future. Humans relying on AI to make them smarter is a long way away, I doubt we'll ever live to see it. I do think we WILL obtain implants which allow us to interact with other electornics with our mind, doing away with devices such as keyboards, etc...

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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Arelor on Sat Aug 15 18:29:15 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Arelor to Andeddu on Sat Aug 15 2020 04:21 am

    Free will creates creatures that can go either wrong or right. As C.S. Lewis said "if a thing is free to be good, it can also be free to be bad - and free will is wha
    has made evil possible."

    Is a "world of autometa, of creatures that work like machines" a world worth creating? I think technocrats like Musk believe so. It's the only way mankind, as a speci
    will ever be able to move in one direction.
    Free will makes evil possible, but also makes good possible.

    Claiming that surrendering free will in order to achieve peace is a worthwhile price is like claiming that bending knee to a maniacal tyrant is a worthwhile price. Sure,
    there would have not been a WWII if everybody had bent knee to Hitler. There would have been a decade of genetic cleansing and then everybody would have lived in peace
    under his boot.

    Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love, or joy or goodness.

    I have noticed that the world depicted in BNW, where free will is no more, is a world without suffering. I have an intense belief that a stale, mechanical world absent of suffering, is preferable to one with free will and all the good (and evil) that comes packaged with it.

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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Andeddu on Sat Aug 15 15:06:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Gamgee <=-

    I think in the short term it'll be sold as a kind of quality of
    life upgrade for human beings. Imagine having the ability to
    access data as quickly as a computer, or having the memory of an autistic savant. Humans will no longer be hindered by the brain's inability to learn anything quickly... imagine learning a new
    language in a day. That's the kind of potential that Musk speaks
    of when he talks of a a brain-machine interface. Even an a below average intellect could be elevated to the standards of geniuses
    today.

    And you think that is a Good Thing...?

    It's good in the sense that it'll improve our chances of one day
    becoming a spacefaring species, bad in the sense that we'll lose
    our humanity.

    OK, so then we can agree that it's a Bad Thing.

    Very bad. Something to fight against and avoid at all costs.
    Yep.



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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Nightfox on Sat Aug 15 15:25:00 2020
    Nightfox wrote to Andeddu <=-

    I think the idea is that we'll lose our individualism to become a very efficient collective. All those sci-fi movies you've watched where humanity is at peace, it's because we've sacrificed our individual beliefs and identitiy to become a unified collective. I believe this may be the case by the end of the century.

    What movies? I'm only really thinking the Borg from Star Trek
    here.. And why would we want to lose our individualism and
    become a collective?

    We wouldn't, and we (in the USA) won't.

    The Euro-commies want that, though, and are already making
    progress in achieving it.



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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Andeddu on Sat Aug 15 15:18:20 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Nightfox on Sat Aug 15 2020 05:33 pm

    What movies? I'm only really thinking the Borg from Star Trek here..
    And why would we want to lose our individualism and become a
    collective?

    Don't the humans in Star Trek belong to the United Federation which Earth, as a nationless planet ruled by a World Government, is a part of? It's the same in films and shows like Serenity, Firefly and Starship Troopers, where Earth is depicted as a United Federation. There are many other examples of humanity acting as a collective but they elude me right now.

    Yes, but those humans don't have any robotic implants. I guess I wasn't quite sure what you meant by "collective". :P

    I suppose you could consider our current world governments collectives..

    Nightfox

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Andeddu on Sat Aug 15 15:21:07 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Nightfox on Sat Aug 15 2020 05:51 pm

    I think we have a ways to go before we fully understand if human-made
    machines with AI are (or can be) really alive and have sentience or
    not.. But I'm still wondering why we'd want to do that.

    "I think therefore I am" - Descartes

    Any creature capable of any form of thought necessarily exists, and I believe this extends to silicon based beings as well.

    Simply existing is different from being alive. A computer, smartphone, etc. exists, but it's not considered alive.
    Even as we develop smarter and more powerful AI, of course those things exist (as tangible objects or pieces of software), but I'm not sure by what definitions we could consider it alive.

    Nightfox

    ---
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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Andeddu on Sat Aug 15 15:31:37 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Ogg on Sat Aug 15 2020 04:54 pm

    Yes, we are going to be hooked up to some kind of internet with the intention of us, as humans, joining a hivemind. I am sure there will be failsafes, as this kind of development won't happen until the end of the century... if everything shutdown, I guess we'd just become mere humans again...

    Who is proposing this? I've never actually heard about this as a serious idea, and I'm not sure everyone would be willing to go along with that.

    Nightfox

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Andeddu on Sat Aug 15 15:33:56 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Ogg on Sat Aug 15 2020 05:04 pm

    Imagine relying on a computer to do all of your low-level processing, such as structuring a sentence, and then being completely shut-off from the network after it goes offline. I think people would struggle to communicate with each other thereafter. We'd be like little babies all over again, unable to articulate anything until the network's brought back online.

    And by relying on a computer for things like that, you're relying by proxy on the people who designed and made the hardware and software. I'm sure they'll program mistakes into it, whether intentional or not. As far as sentence structure, grammar, etc., I continually see common mistakes online, such as using the wrong version of your/you're, their/there/they're, combining words into a single word unnecessarily and for no apparent reason (i.e., I've seen people say "have a goodnight"), etc..

    Nightfox

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Andeddu on Sat Aug 15 17:30:48 2020
    Re: Neuralink
    By: Arelor to Andeddu on Fri Aug 14 2020 03:05 am


    Speaking of which, I recomend you all to watch the Upgrade film. It is about a quadraplejic who gets inserted cyborg implants in order to walk again and begins a crusade to find the bastards that sent him to the wheelchair in the first place. Heavily related to the matter at hand.



    i saw that movie but i dont find it remarkable at all .i cant even remember what it's about until i looked it up on wikipedia
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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Andeddu on Sat Aug 15 18:32:37 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Arelor on Sat Aug 15 2020 06:29 pm

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Arelor to Andeddu on Sat Aug 15 2020 04:21 am

    Free will creates creatures that can go either wrong or right. As C.S. Lewis said "if a thing is free to be good, it can also be free to be b - and free will is wha
    has made evil possible."

    Is a "world of autometa, of creatures that work like machines" a world worth creating? I think technocrats like Musk believe so. It's the onl way mankind, as a speci
    will ever be able to move in one direction.
    Free will makes evil possible, but also makes good possible.

    Claiming that surrendering free will in order to achieve peace is a worthwhile price is like claiming that bending knee to a maniacal tyrant a worthwhile price. Sure,
    there would have not been a WWII if everybody had bent knee to Hitler. Th would have been a decade of genetic cleansing and then everybody would ha lived in peace
    under his boot.

    Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love, or joy or goodness.

    I have noticed that the world depicted in BNW, where free will is no more, i world without suffering. I have an intense belief that a stale, mechanical world absent of suffering, is preferable to one with free will and all the g (and evil) that comes packaged with it.


    Honestly, your world is not worth living in and is worth fending off with live ammo.

    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es

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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Andeddu on Sat Aug 15 19:00:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Arelor <=-

    Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing
    that makes possible any love, or joy or goodness.

    I have noticed that the world depicted in BNW, where free will is
    no more, is a world without suffering. I have an intense belief
    that a stale, mechanical world absent of suffering, is preferable
    to one with free will and all the good (and evil) that comes
    packaged with it.

    I have an intense belief that you are very wrong.

    I also have a strong belief that you should put the crack pipe
    down for a while.



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  • From Ogg@VERT/EOTLBBS to All on Sat Aug 15 21:08:00 2020
    Hello Arelor!

    ** On Friday 14.08.20 - 04:05, arelor wrote to Andeddu:

    Speaking of which, I recomend you all to watch the Upgrade film. It is about a quadraplejic who gets inserted cyborg implants in order to
    walk again and begins a crusade to find the bastards that sent him to
    the wheelchair in the first place. Heavily related to the matter at
    hand.

    Never heard of it. But I like the wiki article describing it like a Death Wish meets Billion Dollar Man mashup. One comment was "Elon Musk's
    Neuralink worst case scenario." LOL

    The trailer looks like what I'd expect it to be. They could have imagined
    the chip to be more futurist though; what looked like a 16-pin chip from
    the 80's doesn't sell the concept to me. LOL

    The voice talking in his head intrigues me. For the story to progress, I guess they needed something to convince the techophobe that instant intel
    is not such a bad thing.

    ---
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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 12:14:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Sat Aug 15 2020 05:10 pm

    We don't understand the mind well enough to know if this well work, and even if we could increase rote capabilities, would it make us more intelligent?

    I think technophiles take a very limited, and myopic view of what intelligence is, and what mental abilities we need in order to create a great civilisation.

    The idea that we're going to improve the intellectual capabilities of individual humans via implants is theory only. A low-level symbiosis is possible, however. Experiments show that we can move electronics with
    the mind alone with patients able to move individual fingers on a
    robotic hand, and drink water from a cup, etc... same with people who
    are able to walk with advanced prostetic legs. These technologies will improve over my lifetime and will become superior to our own biological limbs in the not too distant future. Humans relying on AI to make them smarter is a long way away, I doubt we'll ever live to see it. I do
    think we WILL obtain implants which allow us to interact with other electornics with our mind, doing away with devices such as keyboards, etc...

    But what is intelligence? What aspect of human cognition do we need to advance? Is advancing cognition going to yield positive results, without a good cultural and philosophical basis? There are many "smart" people, but the consequences of their actions are not smart, because even though they are skilled in doing what they do, they have a poor heirarchy of values, have a 'narrow' set of skills, don't understand interrelationships between disparate things, have bad motivations, etc, etc, etc.

    This 'enhancement' will lead to a dystopia, because we are ignoring all these other attributes. Intelligence does not mean that people think correctly.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Arelor on Sun Aug 16 12:18:00 2020
    Arelor wrote to Andeddu <=-

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Ogg on Sat Aug 15 2020 02:12 am

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Ogg to All on Fri Aug 14 2020 12:22 am

    Does the ultimate idea of transhumanism include removing human will? It
    s
    eems to me that "idea" is missing the little detail that humans will
    want to retain their
    own will. To engineer people "to become more egalitarian" via technology
    is simply not natural or not possible - or does
    transhumanism include injecting people with drugs to make them submit to
    b
    eing easily controlled?

    Free will creates creatures that can go either wrong or right. As C.S. Lewis
    said "if a thing is free to be good, it can also be free to be bad -
    and free will is wha
    has made evil possible."

    Is a "world of autometa, of creatures that work like machines" a world worth
    creating? I think technocrats like Musk believe so. It's the only way mankind, as a speci
    will ever be able to move in one direction.

    At its core, transhumanism is humanity's journey from organic beings into
    cre
    atures of silicon. Our transformation will be complete once
    consciousness can be
    digitised... at which point we can then fully shed our biological form.


    Free will makes evil possible, but also makes good possible.

    Claiming that surrendering free will in order to achieve peace is a worthwhile price is like claiming that bending knee to a maniacal
    tyrant is a worthwhile price. Sure, there would have not been a WWII if everybody had bent knee to Hitler. There would have been a decade of genetic cleansing and then everybody would have lived in peace under
    his boot.

    There is no point being alive, if you cannot exercise your own will over yourself. You would in such a situation, not be a human being, but a domesticated animal.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Arelor on Sun Aug 16 12:20:00 2020
    Arelor wrote to Andeddu <=-

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Arelor on Sat Aug 15 2020 06:29 pm

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Arelor to Andeddu on Sat Aug 15 2020 04:21 am

    Free will creates creatures that can go either wrong or right. As C.S. Lewis said "if a thing is free to be good, it can also be free to be b - and free will is wha
    has made evil possible."

    Is a "world of autometa, of creatures that work like machines" a world worth creating? I think technocrats like Musk believe so. It's the onl way mankind, as a speci
    will ever be able to move in one direction.
    Free will makes evil possible, but also makes good possible.

    Claiming that surrendering free will in order to achieve peace is a worthwhile price is like claiming that bending knee to a maniacal tyrant a worthwhile price. Sure,
    there would have not been a WWII if everybody had bent knee to Hitler. Th would have been a decade of genetic cleansing and then everybody would ha lived in peace
    under his boot.

    Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love, or joy or goodness.

    I have noticed that the world depicted in BNW, where free will is no more, i world without suffering. I have an intense belief that a stale, mechanical world absent of suffering, is preferable to one with free will and all the g (and evil) that comes packaged with it.


    Honestly, your world is not worth living in and is worth fending off
    with live ammo.

    I'll help fend it off with you. Such a person is no longer a human being, but a domestic animal, cattle. Suffering is part of life, and part of what makes us what we are. Embrace life in its totality.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
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  • From Hatton@VERT/THRCORN to Andeddu on Sat Aug 15 20:46:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Hatton <=-

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Hatton to Nightfox on Fri Aug 14 2020 11:24 pm

    There has been a debate raging for decades on whether "equality" means equal access to opportunities or forcing equal outcomes.

    By forcing equal outcomes, you end up with communism. We are all
    different and we all have our strengths and weaknesses, and some people have more strengths and others have more weaknesses. It's just like in
    the animal kingdom.

    That is exactly where that debate stems from and current community organizer groups (or is that now called social justice) have managed to change the narrative to such an extent that NOT fighting to force equal outcomes is considered barbaric.



    ... What is mind? No matter! What is matter? Never mind! - Homer S.
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  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Dennisk on Sat Aug 15 21:18:10 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Arelor on Sun Aug 16 2020 12:18 pm

    Claiming that surrendering free will in order to achieve peace is a
    worthwhile price is like claiming that bending knee to a maniacal
    tyrant is a worthwhile price. Sure, there would have not been a WWII
    There is no point being alive, if you cannot exercise your own will over yourself. You would in such a situation, not be a human being, but a domesticated animal.

    There's a strong case to be made that free will doesn't actually exist and is mostly illusory. That would make most of the argument fairly moot.
    ---
    Underminer
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Ogg on Sat Aug 15 23:54:11 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Ogg to All on Sat Aug 15 2020 09:08 pm


    Never heard of it. But I like the wiki article describing it like a Death Wish meets Billion Dollar Man mashup. One comment was "Elon Musk's Neuralink worst case scenario." LOL


    my description would be 'science fiction movie'
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dennisk on Sat Aug 15 23:55:43 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Arelor on Sun Aug 16 2020 12:20 pm

    with free will and all the g (and evil) that comes packaged with it.


    Honestly, your world is not worth living in and is worth fending off
    with live ammo.

    I'll help fend it off with you. Such a person is no longer a human being, but a domestic animal, cattle. Suffering is part of life, and part of what makes us what we are. Embrace life in its totality.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!

    adversity builds character
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Andeddu on Sat Aug 15 23:53:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Ogg on Sat Aug 15 2020 05:04 pm

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Ogg to Andeddu on Fri Aug 14 2020 09:34 pm

    The "network" can fail. I posit that those who are "pure" (no implants) could be highly desirable to intercede (and thus valuable) to fix or override a problem.

    Quite possible. There may be a fair number of those who are opposed to impla all together and view it as the "mark of the devil" as the human body (perfection, in other words) is not to be desecrated in such a fashion.

    If network instability is such a thing in circa 2100, I can see such a plan floundering. The network needs to be perfect and it needs to be maintained a all times, otherwise the entire system is vulnerable to attack.

    Imagine relying on a computer to do all of your low-level processing, such a structuring a sentence, and then being completely shut-off from the network after it goes offline. I think people would struggle to communicate with eac other thereafter. We'd be like little babies all over again, unable to articulate anything until the network's brought back online.


    Kids already have trouble relating to other humans without having a phone in their hands.

    A couple of years ago on NPR there was a guest on a talk show who analyzed
    the writing structure and complexity of written correspondence going back to the revolutionary war. There was a correlation between the length of the letters and the time and distance it took to receive them. The language used became less and less formal and colorful as well, because sending letters was becoming more of common practice opposed to a special luxury. When my nephew joined the Army, he had to learn how to address and stamp an envelope.
    Phones were not allowed in basic until near the end so the only way to talk back and forth was by letter. I was surpised when he said the teachers never went over writing letters or addressing an envelope!

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 00:04:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Ogg on Sat Aug 15 2020 05:09 pm



    You have to remember that all this is relatively new. It wasn't long ago we people with rubber hands and peg-legs. Technology has come a long way in onl two decades, imagine where we will be 80 years from now. I agree that we wil have to be on some kind of drug to prevent the body from rejecting our new limbs/implants... whichever big pharma firm secures that patent will become very powerful indeed.


    Eugenics, genetic screening, and genetic tweaking before birth may also be necessary to integrate cybernetic implants. In order to get the most out o
    f the hardware, the person may also require planned alteration leading to standardization and uniformity. Cloning or selective breeding may be the way to resolve issues by random couplings based on love or passion.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 00:37:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Nightfox on Sat Aug 15 2020 05:33 pm

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Nightfox to Andeddu on Fri Aug 14 2020 09:48 pm

    What movies? I'm only really thinking the Borg from Star Trek here.. An why would we want to lose our individualism and become a collective?

    Don't the humans in Star Trek belong to the United Federation which Earth, a nationless planet ruled by a World Government, is a part of? It's the same i films and shows like Serenity, Firefly and Starship Troopers, where Earth is depicted as a United Federation. There are many other examples of humanity acting as a collective but they elude me right now.

    The point I am trying to make is that by being individuals with completely seperate belief structures, we cannot progress as a civilisation. Everybody to be on the same page and everybody has to walk in the same direction. This can be forced via a dictitorial World Government, brain washing or by mergin us with a machine-interface to create a hive-mind.


    In the case of Serenity/ Firefly, Earth had been used up the remnants moved
    to planets terra formed by big corporations. The central core worlds were ultra modern and civilized, while the periphery worlds were marketed as paradises ready to be settled, when in reality only narrow bands or regions were habitable. The series takes place a decade or so after a civil war or
    war of secession where the periphery worlds sought their independence from
    the core government, and lost. The periphery worlds are prime territory for s mugglers because of sanctions imposed on those who were on the wrong side as
    a form of reprisal.

    That doesn't sound like happy united society where all men join hands and act as brothers. It sounds like a system that breeds corruption at many levels.

    I seriously doubt we can have a society where a janitor, an administrator for the government and a neuro surgeon will look upon each other as equals under the guise of the society. One such test of this I have proposed to others is imagine you are a decision maker in the government. Your only child comes
    down with a rare disease where the cure is hard to create, and limited supplie s exist. At the same time your child is ill, a janitor who sweeps the floors and scrubs the toilets at the city hall also contracted the disease, and so do es a neuro surgeon. There is enough to treat one person, and dividing it
    will result in all three dying. Who gets the treatment? Does the child because of the emotional family connection, the neuro surgeon because his
    skill set, or the janitor because he is essential for ensuring the health and wellness of others by keeping highly trafficked areas sanitized? They are
    all important in to society (assuming the kid is not a whiny brat and will
    fill an essential role to be determined later.)

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 00:45:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Nightfox on Sat Aug 15 2020 05:51 pm


    "I think therefore I am" - Descartes

    Any creature capable of any form of thought necessarily exists, and I believ this extends to silicon based beings as well.

    Man has been playing God for a while now. I believe evolution is now in OUR hands, not necesarily in the hands of nature. Imagine a cybernetic species capable of bypassing the development stage of "baby". Babies never discovere anything important, they've never contributed anything... think of all the resources consumed over 16 years of developmental life where we, as fleshy organic humans, produce almost nothing of tangible importance. If we can digitise consciousness, we can create fully grown bodies implanted with consciousness which, as part of a hive-mind, are as clever and as knowledgab (as they take their first breath) as any other member of their species.

    Sounds like the end of evolution and individuality. Creativity is stifled because the consensus and "group think" will dismiss or quell any thoughts or ideas that question or may be seen as ridicule of the societal structure. Society will cease to grow or evolve. Society will exist to serve the
    society.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 00:50:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Arelor on Sat Aug 15 2020 06:29 pm

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Arelor to Andeddu on Sat Aug 15 2020 04:21 am

    Free will creates creatures that can go either wrong or right. As C.S. Lewis said "if a thing is free to be good, it can also be free to be b - and free will is wha
    has made evil possible."

    Is a "world of autometa, of creatures that work like machines" a world worth creating? I think technocrats like Musk believe so. It's the onl way mankind, as a speci
    will ever be able to move in one direction.
    Free will makes evil possible, but also makes good possible.

    Claiming that surrendering free will in order to achieve peace is a worthwhile price is like claiming that bending knee to a maniacal tyrant a worthwhile price. Sure,
    there would have not been a WWII if everybody had bent knee to Hitler. Th would have been a decade of genetic cleansing and then everybody would ha lived in peace
    under his boot.

    Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love, or joy or goodness.

    I have noticed that the world depicted in BNW, where free will is no more, i world without suffering. I have an intense belief that a stale, mechanical world absent of suffering, is preferable to one with free will and all the g (and evil) that comes packaged with it.


    When you abandon liberty for temporary safety, you will lose both and deserve neither.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Dennisk on Sun Aug 16 03:15:09 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Arelor on Sun Aug 16 2020 12:20 pm

    Arelor wrote to Andeddu <=-

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Arelor on Sat Aug 15 2020 06:29 pm

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Arelor to Andeddu on Sat Aug 15 2020 04:21 am

    Free will creates creatures that can go either wrong or right. As C Lewis said "if a thing is free to be good, it can also be free to b - and free will is wha
    has made evil possible."

    Is a "world of autometa, of creatures that work like machines" a wo worth creating? I think technocrats like Musk believe so. It's the way mankind, as a speci
    will ever be able to move in one direction.
    Free will makes evil possible, but also makes good possible.

    Claiming that surrendering free will in order to achieve peace is a worthwhile price is like claiming that bending knee to a maniacal tyra a worthwhile price. Sure,
    there would have not been a WWII if everybody had bent knee to Hitler. would have been a decade of genetic cleansing and then everybody would lived in peace
    under his boot.

    Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that mak possible any love, or joy or goodness.

    I have noticed that the world depicted in BNW, where free will is no more world without suffering. I have an intense belief that a stale, mechanica world absent of suffering, is preferable to one with free will and all th (and evil) that comes packaged with it.


    Honestly, your world is not worth living in and is worth fending off with live ammo.

    I'll help fend it off with you. Such a person is no longer a human being, b a domestic animal, cattle. Suffering is part of life, and part of what make us what we are. Embrace life in its totality.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!

    Well, my horses are domestic animals and I think they are quite happy. But then, I let them interact and play and do fun horse things. If you were integrated into a dictatorial hive mind you would not even have the pleasure of making friends and playing in a controlled environment. You would be LESS than a domestic animal.

    The main problem I have is that surrendering your existence to The Borg in order to avoid suffering is like giving up the pleasure and pride of harvesting your own potatoes because you didn't want to suffer the work it took to tend the harvest. Or giving up the joy of finishing a novel because you didn't want to go through the ordeal of writing it. It sounds like a lazy opt-out.


    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Underminer on Sun Aug 16 03:16:32 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Underminer to Dennisk on Sat Aug 15 2020 09:18 pm

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Arelor on Sun Aug 16 2020 12:18 pm

    Claiming that surrendering free will in order to achieve peace is a
    worthwhile price is like claiming that bending knee to a maniacal
    tyrant is a worthwhile price. Sure, there would have not been a WWII
    There is no point being alive, if you cannot exercise your own will ove yourself. You would in such a situation, not be a human being, but a domesticated animal.

    There's a strong case to be made that free will doesn't actually exist and i mostly illusory. That would make most of the argument fairly moot.

    In that case feel free to surrender YOUR illusory free will. I will kee mine.

    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Ogg on Sun Aug 16 03:19:01 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Ogg to All on Sat Aug 15 2020 09:08 pm

    Hello Arelor!

    ** On Friday 14.08.20 - 04:05, arelor wrote to Andeddu:

    Speaking of which, I recomend you all to watch the Upgrade film. It is about a quadraplejic who gets inserted cyborg implants in order to
    walk again and begins a crusade to find the bastards that sent him to the wheelchair in the first place. Heavily related to the matter at hand.

    Never heard of it. But I like the wiki article describing it like a Death Wish meets Billion Dollar Man mashup. One comment was "Elon Musk's Neuralink worst case scenario." LOL

    The trailer looks like what I'd expect it to be. They could have imagined the chip to be more futurist though; what looked like a 16-pin chip from
    the 80's doesn't sell the concept to me. LOL

    The voice talking in his head intrigues me. For the story to progress, I guess they needed something to convince the techophobe that instant intel
    is not such a bad thing.


    You really need to watch it in order to see how the film works.

    Fun fact: the chip accepts Linux/Unix commands and is interfaced with using Python.

    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Gamgee on Sun Aug 16 19:17:00 2020
    On 08-14-20 07:54, Gamgee wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Intellect is one thing, but there's something else needed to
    temper that intellect that I doubt technology can give us -
    wisdom.

    Exactly, and other things too, like experience and judgement.

    True, too many human traits that we need. :)


    ... At a store: In God we trust; all others pay cash.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 19:59:00 2020
    On 08-15-20 01:52, Andeddu wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    I think the idea is that we'll lose our individualism to become a very efficient collective. All those sci-fi movies you've watched where humanity is at peace, it's because we've sacrificed our individual
    beliefs and identitiy to become a unified collective. I believe this
    may be the case by the end of the century.

    I have a problem with this on so many levels. Ignoring the obvious distasteful aspect of surrendering individuality, this has some potentially serious consequences. Nature's strength is in its diversity, and that's what allows species to survive and adapt. The more diverse a population is, the more likely that some individuals will survive a catastropht (climate change, habitat change, ecological disaster (e.g. the asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs).

    And today, we are seeing companies, including giants such as Microsoft and IBM hiring neurologically different people, specifically to gain a competitive advantage from that diversity.

    Making us all think the same exposes us to unknown threats that a different mind could have picked up in time.

    Science fiction also tells stories about how a diverse population is able to tap into that diversity to avoid catastrophe. Numerous episodes in Star Trek Voyager explore this theme.


    ... Steve Hawkins' new cosmological cookbook: "A brief history of thyme."
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Nightfox on Sun Aug 16 20:39:00 2020
    On 08-14-20 17:17, Nightfox wrote to Warpslide <=-

    It's still possible for your phone battery to die out and need a
    recharge. ;) But I see what you mean. I don't like to always have to
    rely on technology though. Sometimes it can be easy to get in the
    habit of pulling out your phone calculator for even simple math that
    you could do in your head faster than using your phone calculator..

    I like to keep myself sharp with mental arithmetic ans working it out with pen and paper. I have done the latter when working out the bill in restaurants, much to the amusement and amazement of those around. :D


    ... If silly had wings, this place would be an airport!
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Moondog on Sun Aug 16 20:51:00 2020
    On 08-15-20 01:31, Moondog wrote to Nightfox <=-

    Imagine how life would change if a solar flare acted as an EMP and
    fried the majority of electronics on Earth. Even some of the simplest items have some sort of solid state regulator or components that may
    not survive such a hit. Modrn batteries have solid state ICS to help in charging or protecting it's cells from over charging.

    People confuse solar EMP with nuclear EMP. My understanding is they are very different Nuclear EMP creats a lot of extremely powerful high frequency components from the effects of gamma rays interacting with the atmosphere from above. It is this high frequency EMP that fries solid state elkectronics.

    Solar EMP generates low frequency EMP by altering the shape and strength of the Earth's magnetic field (nuclear EMP can do this too). These low frequency induced currents tend to affect power systems , partcularly large iron core transformers, and long power and telecommunications lines (the Carrington flare caused many documented issues with the telegraph network).

    So, after a Carrington type event, we'd have our electronics, but nothing to power it with, except batteries and backup generators. And it would take years to get the grid fixed.


    ... Find a safe part and use it as an anchor
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From HusTler@VERT/HAVENS to Dennisk on Sun Aug 16 09:03:14 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 2020 12:14 pm

    We don't understand the mind well enough to know if this well work,

    I think technophiles take a very limited, and myopic view of what
    intelligence is, and what mental abilities we need in order to

    create a great civilisation.

    become superior to our own biological limbs in the not too distant

    future. Humans relying on AI to make them smarter is a long way
    advance? Is advancing cognition going to yield positive results, without a good cultural and philosophical basis? There are many "smart" people, but

    You guys watch and read too much Sci-Fi. Use your brain power to solve real world problems and stop debating futuristic nonense you've read about or saw in a movie. ;-) Do you have any ideas on how to eliminate racism and poverty in the world? Can AI and biological limbs help society with these issues?

    HusTler
    havens.synchro.net:23

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Havens BBS havens.synchro.net
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Moondog on Sun Aug 16 09:55:39 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Moondog to Andeddu on Sat Aug 15 2020 11:53 pm

    luxury. When my nephew joined the Army, he had to learn how to address and stamp an envelope. Phones were not allowed in basic until near the end so the only way to talk back and forth was by letter. I was surpised when he said the teachers never went over writing letters or addressing an envelope!

    Is that the kind of thing that needs to be taught in schools though? I don't remember that ever being taught in schools when I was growing up, and I know how to address and stamp an envelope. I always thought that was just one of those things you can learn easily at home from parents & such. I'm surprised you say your nephew learned that when he joined the Army? He has never had to send anything in an envelope in the mail before?

    Nightfox

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to HusTler on Sun Aug 16 13:40:54 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: HusTler to Dennisk on Sun Aug 16 2020 09:03 am


    You guys watch and read too much Sci-Fi. Use your brain power to solve real world problems and stop debating futuristic nonense you've read about or saw in a movie. ;-) Do you have any ideas on how to eliminate racism and poverty in the world? Can AI and biological limbs help society with these issues?


    motherfucker, i work for a living. i dont care about racism or poverty.
    i'm working on myself, like other people need to do.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Sun Aug 16 13:42:24 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Nightfox to Moondog on Sun Aug 16 2020 09:55 am

    Is that the kind of thing that needs to be taught in schools though? I don't remember that ever being taught in schools when I was growing up, and I know how to address and stamp an envelope. I always thought that was just one of those things you can learn easily at home from parents & such.


    YES. in school i was taught how to address an envelope. just like i was taught how to draft a letter.


    where did you grow up? it seems like you missed out on a lot of stuff in your school system.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Warpslide@VERT/NRBBS to Vk3jed on Sun Aug 16 16:33:00 2020
    On 16 Aug 2020, Vk3jed said the following...

    So, after a Carrington type event, we'd have our electronics, but nothing power it with, except batteries and backup generators. And it would take to get the grid fixed.

    I remember a TV show from a few years back called Revolution. The premise was that all electronics stopped working & no one was sure why. Even batteries
    and newly generated electricity no longer works.

    In this post-apocalyptic governments fall & can no longer maintain order. Various areas of the U.S are controlled by different militias and their generals.

    The first season was alright, I remember thinking the second season got a little silly which is why it was never renewed for a third I suppose.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_(TV_series)


    Jay

    ... Sorry, yesterday was the deadline for all complaints

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/11 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Northern Realms BBS | bbs.nrbbs.net | Binbrook, ON
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Gamgee on Sun Aug 16 17:32:28 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Gamgee to Andeddu on Sat Aug 15 2020 03:06 pm

    OK, so then we can agree that it's a Bad Thing.

    Very bad. Something to fight against and avoid at all costs.
    Yep.

    If you think the human body is sacred and we shoudln't taper with it, unless absolutely necessary... it's a bad thing. I just think that it'll be normalised in the future and people will happily pick up all kinds of augmentations to "improve" themselves. We've already progressed to wearable smart-tech... it'll only be a matter of time before implants become the norm. When you take this to its natural conclusion, it's where we are going.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Gamgee on Sun Aug 16 17:35:04 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Gamgee to Nightfox on Sat Aug 15 2020 03:25 pm

    We wouldn't, and we (in the USA) won't.

    The Euro-commies want that, though, and are already making
    progress in achieving it.

    There is some desire in Europe to stifle nations along with nationalism to maintain the European Union and expand on it.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Nightfox on Sun Aug 16 17:38:09 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Nightfox to Andeddu on Sat Aug 15 2020 03:18 pm

    Yes, but those humans don't have any robotic implants. I guess I wasn't quite sure what you meant by "collective". :P

    I suppose you could consider our current world governments collectives..

    I can see us having some knd of unified world government by the end of the century. Technology is making our world small and smaller and, as such, people are beginning to question the necessity for nation states.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Nightfox on Sun Aug 16 17:44:19 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Nightfox to Andeddu on Sat Aug 15 2020 03:21 pm

    "I think therefore I am" - Descartes

    Any creature capable of any form of thought necessarily exists, and I believe this extends to silicon based beings as well.

    Simply existing is different from being alive. A computer, smartphone, etc. exists, but it's not considered alive.
    Even as we develop smarter and more powerful AI, of course those things exist (as tangible objects or pieces of software), but I'm not sure by what definitions we could consider it alive.

    Anything that's capable of independent thought is alive. So an AI which is capable of questioning its existence, is alive. Ever watch iRobot or Johnny 5? Those things are alive, man!

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Nightfox on Sun Aug 16 17:49:30 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Nightfox to Andeddu on Sat Aug 15 2020 03:31 pm

    Who is proposing this? I've never actually heard about this as a serious idea, and I'm not sure everyone would be willing to go along with that.

    Nightfox

    It's not a proposition, techonologists present this as a fact... it's what you get when you follow transhumanism to its natural conclusion.

    First we rely on computers, then mobile phones/smart phones, then wearables (smart glasses/watches) before we end up with implants and artifical organs/appendiges. If we keep on going, there won't be much left of us that could be considered "human"...

    ---
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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Gamgee on Sun Aug 16 17:57:55 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Gamgee to Andeddu on Sat Aug 15 2020 07:00 pm

    I have an intense belief that you are very wrong.

    I also have a strong belief that you should put the crack pipe
    down for a while.

    This is a serious discussion academics have been having since the 1930s. Just because you've not come across social engineering, it doesn't mean that it's never going to happen. If you see something you disagree with, use your first-amendment right to argue against it.

    ---
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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Dennisk on Sun Aug 16 18:18:17 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 2020 12:14 pm

    But what is intelligence? What aspect of human cognition do we need to advance? Is advancing cognition going to yield positive results, without a good cultural and philosophical basis? There are many "smart" people, but the consequences of their actions are not smart, because even though they are skilled in doing what they do, they have a poor heirarchy of values, have a 'narrow' set of skills, don't understand interrelationships between disparate things, have bad motivations, etc, etc, etc.

    This 'enhancement' will lead to a dystopia, because we are ignoring all these other attributes. Intelligence does not mean that people think correctly.

    The idea is to make us all the same. Once we all believe in the same thing, and we revere certain societal axioms, human civilisation will move in a single direction... rather than being disparate parts of a machine constantly tearing away at itself with unecessary conflict.

    Yes, we will have to rely on some kind of dictator to make this happen, as democracy is not a good model for "getting stuff done". But this would occur naturally should there ever be a world government. In that sense, we could achieve either a utopia, or potentially a dystopia.

    ---
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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Dennisk on Sun Aug 16 18:27:51 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Arelor on Sun Aug 16 2020 12:20 pm

    I'll help fend it off with you. Such a person is no longer a human being, but a domestic animal, cattle. Suffering is part of life, and part of what makes us what we are. Embrace life in its totality.

    We don't suffer much in the West. Most of the World's population is below the povery line, suffering is a way of life for them. The ONLY Way to end all conflict (and cleanse us of the muck of our darkest desires) is to remove free will.

    ---
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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Moondog on Sun Aug 16 18:40:41 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Moondog to Andeddu on Sat Aug 15 2020 11:53 pm

    Kids already have trouble relating to other humans without having a phone in their hands.

    A couple of years ago on NPR there was a guest on a talk show who analyzed the writing structure and complexity of written correspondence going back to the revolutionary war. There was a correlation between the length of the letters and the time and distance it took to receive them. The language used became less and less formal and colorful as well, because sending letters was becoming more of common practice opposed to a special luxury.

    Similar studies have been carried out here too which show we are less articulate now than we were in the 1600s. There are educators out there who denounce technology in the belief that it dumbs down our children. These days, it's all too common to see kids on Twitch and YouTube watching other kids play Minecraft and Fortnite rather than reading books, which is what they would have done half a century ago. The internet has made everybody lazy too. You'll never see a child who can navigate around a library or read a map anymore. And like you said, formal letter writing is all but dead.

    ---
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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Moondog on Sun Aug 16 18:50:01 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Moondog to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 2020 12:04 am

    Eugenics, genetic screening, and genetic tweaking before birth may also be necessary to integrate cybernetic implants. In order to get the most out o f the hardware, the person may also require planned alteration leading to standardization and uniformity. Cloning or selective breeding may be the way to resolve issues by random couplings based on love or passion.

    I suppose there could be a way of making the human body more susceptible to foreign objects such as implants, if the human is particularly young.

    In Brave New World (along with Nineteen Eighty-Four) love and passion were viewed as undesireable/illegal. If you love someone, you would put them above the state... this is why family units were not permitted, children were brought up exclusively by the state and brain-washed from an early age.

    In these books "everybody belonged to everybody else" so, although there was sex, it was with different partners so that no two people could become too attached to one another.

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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Moondog on Sun Aug 16 19:09:18 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Moondog to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 2020 12:37 am

    I seriously doubt we can have a society where a janitor, an administrator for the government and a neuro surgeon will look upon each other as equals under the guise of the society. One such test of this I have proposed to others is imagine you are a decision maker in the government. Your only child comes
    down with a rare disease where the cure is hard to create, and limited supplie s exist. At the same time your child is ill, a janitor who sweeps the floors and scrubs the toilets at the city hall also contracted the disease, and so do es a neuro surgeon. There is enough to treat one person, and dividing it
    will result in all three dying. Who gets the treatment? Does the child because of the emotional family connection, the neuro surgeon because his skill set, or the janitor because he is essential for ensuring the health and wellness of others by keeping highly trafficked areas sanitized? They are
    all important in to society (assuming the kid is not a whiny brat and will fill an essential role to be determined later.)

    No one is suggesting they all look upon each other as equals. I think the issue with this is that we are talking about different stages of society. The idea that we will merge with AI, is sort of the end-game... the end of humanity and the beginning of a completely new lifeform. If, in a world government, there is peace and we live in an egalitarian society... no one is going to be FAR better off than anyone else, it's just that there will be smaller perks as an administrator, doctor or scientist, rather than a janitor. You may have a slightly larger appartment, a larger TV to watch and tastier food to eat, but your life and his are going to be comparable.

    As long as humans are involved, there will always be nepotism, bribary and corruption... free will breeds self-interest, therefore it doesn't matter if the administrator looks after his own child... as, in his world, the three aren't equal.

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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Moondog on Sun Aug 16 19:16:10 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Moondog to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 2020 12:45 am

    Sounds like the end of evolution and individuality. Creativity is stifled because the consensus and "group think" will dismiss or quell any thoughts or ideas that question or may be seen as ridicule of the societal structure. Society will cease to grow or evolve. Society will exist to serve the society.

    To be an individual, free will is required. As soon as you are hooked up to something that thinks for you, you will NOT possess free will. Therefore, there will be no individuals in a true transhumanist society as decisions will be made by consensus as we will all think alike.

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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Vk3jed on Sun Aug 16 19:27:52 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Vk3jed to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 2020 07:59 pm

    I have a problem with this on so many levels. Ignoring the obvious distasteful aspect of surrendering individuality, this has some potentially serious consequences. Nature's strength is in its diversity, and that's what allows species to survive and adapt. The more diverse a population is, the more likely that some individuals will survive a catastropht (climate change, habitat change, ecological disaster (e.g. the asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs).

    And today, we are seeing companies, including giants such as Microsoft and IBM hiring neurologically different people, specifically to gain a competitive advantage from that diversity.

    Making us all think the same exposes us to unknown threats that a different mind could have picked up in time.

    Science fiction also tells stories about how a diverse population is able to tap into that diversity to avoid catastrophe. Numerous episodes in Star Trek Voyager explore this theme.

    You seem to be talking about biological differences between the races. My argument was made purely on ideological consensus, as genetric traits between humans are (I would guess) not particularly deep... technology would overcome genetic/neurological advantages/disadvantages with ease. The diverse population of Star Trek Voyager are diverse in colour/creed but not in ideology. They are individuals who happen to agree on most things, even the non-humans.

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  • From Warpslide@VERT/NRBBS to Nightfox on Sun Aug 16 16:37:00 2020
    On 16 Aug 2020, Nightfox said the following...

    Is that the kind of thing that needs to be taught in schools though?

    I'm not sure if I ever learned that in school. I remember my Mom having us write my great-grandma & my grandparents when we were kids. We'd have to
    write a letter and watch my mom write the addresses on the envelope.

    I remember my sister & I would always fight over who got to lick the stamp.

    It's weird the things kids fight about...

    Jay

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  • From Ogg@VERT/EOTLBBS to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 18:13:51 2020
    On 8/16/2020 1:27 PM, between "Andeddu": Dennisk

    I'll help fend it off with you. Such a person is no longer
    a human being, but a domestic animal, cattle. Suffering is
    part of life, and part of what makes us what we are.
    Embrace life in its totality.

    We don't suffer much in the West. Most of the World's
    population is below the povery line, suffering is a way of
    life for them. The ONLY Way to end all conflict (and cleanse
    us of the muck of our darkest desires) is to remove free
    will.

    Would you be the first to volunteer to have your free will removed?

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Nightfox on Sun Aug 16 15:55:44 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Nightfox to Moondog on Sun Aug 16 2020 09:55 am

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Moondog to Andeddu on Sat Aug 15 2020 11:53 pm

    luxury. When my nephew joined the Army, he had to learn how to address stamp an envelope. Phones were not allowed in basic until near the end the only way to talk back and forth was by letter. I was surpised when said the teachers never went over writing letters or addressing an envelope!

    Is that the kind of thing that needs to be taught in schools though? I don' remember that ever being taught in schools when I was growing up, and I know how to address and stamp an envelope. I always thought that was just one of those things you can learn easily at home from parents & such. I'm surprise you say your nephew learned that when he joined the Army? He has never had send anything in an envelope in the mail before?

    Nightfox


    Here in Spain, that stuff was taught in school. But then, in theory they taught you to read and write and my parents had to teach me that :-P

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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to MRO on Sun Aug 16 17:05:00 2020
    MRO wrote to HusTler <=-

    You guys watch and read too much Sci-Fi. Use your brain power to solve real world problems and stop debating futuristic nonense you've read about or saw in a movie. ;-) Do you have any ideas on how to eliminate racism and poverty in the world? Can AI and biological limbs help society with these issues?

    motherfucker, i work for a living. i dont care about racism or
    poverty. i'm working on myself, like other people need to do.

    There's no call to talk like that, jackass.

    He wasn't even talking to you in his message. You really are a
    moron and a rude piece of shit.



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  • From Ogg@VERT/EOTLBBS to All on Sun Aug 16 18:26:00 2020
    Hello Andeddu!

    ** On Sunday 16.08.20 - 13:50, andeddu wrote to Moondog:

    In Brave New World (along with Nineteen Eighty-Four) love and passion
    were viewed as undesireable/illegal. If you love someone, you would
    put them above the state... this is why family units were not
    permitted, children were brought up exclusively by the state and brain-washed from an early age.

    In these books "everybody belonged to everybody else" so, although
    there was sex, it was with different partners so that no two people
    could become too attached to one another.

    But, did you finish the story to the end?

    Also, do not forget that BNW (along with 1984) is just a story. Fiction.
    It is just one man's imagined world... "What if.." In other words, life does NOT have to be like that. They are not proclamations on ideal societies. Someone who considers themselves "unequal" (and better) would want to be in charge of the masses. How equal is that?

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  • From Ogg@VERT/EOTLBBS to Warpslide on Sun Aug 16 18:31:00 2020
    Hello Warpslide!

    ** On Sunday 16.08.20 - 12:37, warpslide wrote to Nightfox:

    I remember my sister & I would always fight over who got to lick the
    stamp.

    It's weird the things kids fight about...

    I see kids fighting over who gets to press the OK button on the POS device after the adult has entered the codes.

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to MRO on Sun Aug 16 16:46:47 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: MRO to Nightfox on Sun Aug 16 2020 01:42 pm

    Is that the kind of thing that needs to be taught in schools though?
    I don't remember that ever being taught in schools when I was
    growing up, and I know how to address and stamp an envelope. I
    always thought that was just one of those things you can learn
    easily at home from parents & such.

    YES. in school i was taught how to address an envelope. just like i was taught how to draft a letter.

    where did you grow up? it seems like you missed out on a lot of stuff in your school system.

    Northwest Oregon. I know how to address an envelope, and maybe it's one of those things they did teach and I just forgot it was taught in school.

    Nightfox

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 16:48:25 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Nightfox on Sun Aug 16 2020 05:49 pm

    Who is proposing this? I've never actually heard about this as a
    serious idea, and I'm not sure everyone would be willing to go along
    with that.

    It's not a proposition, techonologists present this as a fact... it's what you get when you follow transhumanism to its natural conclusion.

    I'm not sure it's a fact that humans will for sure all accept machine implants.. We don't know what will happen in the future, and I'm sure a lot of people will be opposed to it.

    Nightfox

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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 16:55:39 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Moondog on Sun Aug 16 2020 07:16 pm

    To be an individual, free will is required. As soon as you are hooked up to something that thinks for you, you will NOT possess free will. Therefore, there will be no individuals in a true transhumanist society as decisions will be made by consensus as we will all think alike.

    Something tells me removing free will and having AI think for us is not the answer. We would basically be slaves to the machines, much like in sci-fi stories like The Matrix or John Christopher's The Tripods (AKA The White Mountains), etc.. After all of humanity's history to fight for freedom and independence, I don't think people will want to turn themselves over to machines. The idea that people would willingly let AI think for us seems a bit
    nonsensical.

    Nightfox

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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Sun Aug 16 19:41:39 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Nightfox to MRO on Sun Aug 16 2020 04:46 pm

    was taught how to draft a letter.

    where did you grow up? it seems like you missed out on a lot of
    stuff in your school system.

    Northwest Oregon. I know how to address an envelope, and maybe it's one of those things they did teach and I just forgot it was taught in school.



    should be like 3rd grade english class or earlier.
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  • From Warpslide@VERT/NRBBS to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 21:27:00 2020
    On 16 Aug 2020, Andeddu said the following...

    Anything that's capable of independent thought is alive. So an AI which is capable of questioning its existence, is alive. Ever watch iRobot or Johnn Those things are alive, man!

    I used to love Short Circuit when I was a kid. "Wouldn't. You. Like. To. Be. A. Pepper. Too?"

    Haven't seen it in years, I wonder how it holds up in 2020.

    Jay

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  • From Warpslide@VERT/NRBBS to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 21:29:00 2020
    On 16 Aug 2020, Andeddu said the following...

    There is some desire in Europe to stifle nations along with nationalism to maintain the European Union and expand on it.

    I've often wondered whether I'd see a North American Union in my lifetime.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Union

    Jay

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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Underminer on Mon Aug 17 08:38:00 2020
    Underminer wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Arelor on Sun Aug 16 2020 12:18 pm

    Claiming that surrendering free will in order to achieve peace is a
    worthwhile price is like claiming that bending knee to a maniacal
    tyrant is a worthwhile price. Sure, there would have not been a WWII
    There is no point being alive, if you cannot exercise your own will over yourself. You would in such a situation, not be a human being, but a domesticated animal.

    There's a strong case to be made that free will doesn't actually exist
    and is mostly illusory. That would make most of the argument fairly
    moot. ---

    No it wouldn't. What you are saying, is that if we have no free will, we must submit to other peoples standards? If we are found to have no free will, nothing changes. Our morals won't change, why should they? Our behaviour won't change, nor would the reality of our interactions with each other or the world.



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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Arelor on Mon Aug 17 08:51:00 2020
    Arelor wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Arelor on Sun Aug 16 2020 12:20 pm

    Arelor wrote to Andeddu <=-

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Arelor on Sat Aug 15 2020 06:29 pm

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Arelor to Andeddu on Sat Aug 15 2020 04:21 am

    Free will creates creatures that can go either wrong or right. As C Lewis said "if a thing is free to be good, it can also be free to b - and free will is wha
    has made evil possible."

    Is a "world of autometa, of creatures that work like machines" a wo worth creating? I think technocrats like Musk believe so. It's the way mankind, as a speci
    will ever be able to move in one direction.
    Free will makes evil possible, but also makes good possible.

    Claiming that surrendering free will in order to achieve peace is a worthwhile price is like claiming that bending knee to a maniacal tyra a worthwhile price. Sure,
    there would have not been a WWII if everybody had bent knee to Hitler. would have been a decade of genetic cleansing and then everybody would lived in peace
    under his boot.

    Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that mak possible any love, or joy or goodness.

    I have noticed that the world depicted in BNW, where free will is no more world without suffering. I have an intense belief that a stale, mechanica world absent of suffering, is preferable to one with free will and all th (and evil) that comes packaged with it.


    Honestly, your world is not worth living in and is worth fending off with live ammo.

    I'll help fend it off with you. Such a person is no longer a human being, b a domestic animal, cattle. Suffering is part of life, and part of what make us what we are. Embrace life in its totality.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!

    Well, my horses are domestic animals and I think they are quite happy.
    But then, I let them interact and play and do fun horse things. If you were integrated into a dictatorial hive mind you would not even have
    the pleasure of making friends and playing in a controlled environment. You would be LESS than a domestic animal.

    The problem is awareness. We would have some low level awareness of something 'not being right'. Humans aren't that great at self-awareness, but we do feel the suffering of situations which aren't quite right. Call it social malaise, anomie, depression, I think even if it were a manufactured 'paradise', we would be wondering why so many people just don't feel good in it. Our modern world is like that in many ways.

    Some people would thrive, sure, but others would be restless, agitated.

    The main problem I have is that surrendering your existence to The Borg
    in order to avoid suffering is like giving up the pleasure and pride of harvesting your own potatoes because you didn't want to suffer the work
    it took to tend the harvest. Or giving up the joy of finishing a novel because you didn't want to go through the ordeal of writing it. It
    sounds like a lazy opt-out.

    That is a problem indeed. My bigger concern is that the "borg mind" is the creation of someones vision, and that vision is created by someone no better than you or I, and we will be STUCK with it. We will no longer be able to adapt, to change, to reconsider our morals or values. We won't be able to say "Hey, we got it wrong", or undo the problems created by our incorrect assumptions. Being able to break out, and challenge fundamentals is always critical, and always will be.

    This 'utopia' is based on assumptions. Assumptions about what we want in life, what we need, what we don't want. I don't think we understand this will enough yet.

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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to HusTler on Mon Aug 17 11:22:00 2020
    HusTler wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 2020 12:14 pm

    We don't understand the mind well enough to know if this well work,

    I think technophiles take a very limited, and myopic view of what
    intelligence is, and what mental abilities we need in order to

    create a great civilisation.

    become superior to our own biological limbs in the not too distant

    future. Humans relying on AI to make them smarter is a long way
    advance? Is advancing cognition going to yield positive results, without a good cultural and philosophical basis? There are many "smart" people, but

    You guys watch and read too much Sci-Fi. Use your brain power to solve real world problems and stop debating futuristic nonense you've read
    about or saw in a movie. ;-) Do you have any ideas on how to eliminate racism and poverty in the world? Can AI and biological limbs help
    society with these issues?

    Greed is a bigger problem than those two.

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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 11:27:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 2020 12:14 pm

    But what is intelligence? What aspect of human cognition do we need to advance? Is advancing cognition going to yield positive results, without a good cultural and philosophical basis? There are many "smart" people, but the consequences of their actions are not smart, because even though they are skilled in doing what they do, they have a poor heirarchy of values, have a 'narrow' set of skills, don't understand interrelationships between disparate things, have bad motivations, etc, etc, etc.

    This 'enhancement' will lead to a dystopia, because we are ignoring all these other attributes. Intelligence does not mean that people think correctly.

    The idea is to make us all the same. Once we all believe in the same thing, and we revere certain societal axioms, human civilisation will
    move in a single direction... rather than being disparate parts of a machine constantly tearing away at itself with unecessary conflict.

    Yes, we will have to rely on some kind of dictator to make this happen,
    as democracy is not a good model for "getting stuff done". But this
    would occur naturally should there ever be a world government. In that sense, we could achieve either a utopia, or potentially a dystopia.

    God, that sounds awful. The worst, most murderous regimes have this as their goal. Removing those that don't fit in.

    Make us the same as whose vision? Which dictator? Mine? Which axioms? Please don't tell me modern ones, I'll vomit!

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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 11:28:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Arelor on Sun Aug 16 2020 12:20 pm

    I'll help fend it off with you. Such a person is no longer a human being, but a domestic animal, cattle. Suffering is part of life, and part of what makes us what we are. Embrace life in its totality.

    We don't suffer much in the West. Most of the World's population is
    below the povery line, suffering is a way of life for them. The ONLY
    Way to end all conflict (and cleanse us of the muck of our darkest desires) is to remove free will.

    I'll choose conflict thanks. And I don't believe that you can end it by removing free will. You can only make people the same through suppression and genocide. This idea of 'one humanity' is ghastly.

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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 11:39:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Vk3jed to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 2020 07:59 pm

    I have a problem with this on so many levels. Ignoring the obvious distasteful aspect of surrendering individuality, this has some potentially serious consequences. Nature's strength is in its diversity, and that's what allows species to survive and adapt. The more diverse a population is, the more likely that some individuals will survive a catastropht (climate change, habitat change, ecological disaster (e.g. the asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs).

    And today, we are seeing companies, including giants such as Microsoft and IBM hiring neurologically different people, specifically to gain a competitive advantage from that diversity.

    Making us all think the same exposes us to unknown threats that a different mind could have picked up in time.

    Science fiction also tells stories about how a diverse population is able to tap into that diversity to avoid catastrophe. Numerous episodes in Star Trek Voyager explore this theme.

    You seem to be talking about biological differences between the races.
    My argument was made purely on ideological consensus, as genetric
    traits between humans are (I would guess) not particularly deep... technology would overcome genetic/neurological advantages/disadvantages with ease. The diverse population of Star Trek Voyager are diverse in colour/creed but not in ideology. They are individuals who happen to
    agree on most things, even the non-humans.

    I think that ideology and culture is to some degree, genetically determined in subtle ways. Perhaps not significantly, but I would be surprised if it wasn't.

    Star Trek is science fiction, based upon contemporary Western ideals which have been held by a small minority of the human population, for a tiny fraction of history (these ideals will become outdated soon). It is just a story. You may as well be using The Cat in the Hat the determine the future history of humanity, the latter is more realistic (I've seen a cat wear a hat).

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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 19:53:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-

    I'll help fend it off with you. Such a person is no longer a human being, but a domestic animal, cattle. Suffering is part of life, and part of what makes us what we are. Embrace life in its totality.

    We don't suffer much in the West. Most of the World's population
    is below the povery line, suffering is a way of life for them.
    The ONLY Way to end all conflict (and cleanse us of the muck of
    our darkest desires) is to remove free will.

    I'm starting to wonder if you're some kind of troll who actually
    believes the horseshit you're shoveling. Still not quite certain
    if that's it, or if you're just a drug-damaged moron who likes to
    hear himself spout off.

    Either way, you're now in the loony-bin / whacko category, and
    mostly ignored.


    ... Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever.
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Nightfox on Sun Aug 16 20:06:00 2020
    Nightfox wrote to Andeddu <=-

    Who is proposing this? I've never actually heard about this as a
    serious idea, and I'm not sure everyone would be willing to go along
    with that.

    It's not a proposition, techonologists present this as a fact... it's what you get when you follow transhumanism to its natural conclusion.

    I'm not sure it's a fact that humans will for sure all accept
    machine implants.. We don't know what will happen in the future,
    and I'm sure a lot of people will be opposed to it.

    I am positive that it's a fact that most (the VAST majority) will
    NOT accept machine implants.

    "Transhumanism" is a freak/niche idea that only a very few
    whack-jobs subscribe to. It's like they wanted to be science
    fiction writers, but failed, so came up with this idea to try to
    justify their distorted "thinking". It's right there beside the "flat-earthers" on the scale of stupid beliefs.


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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 20:14:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Gamgee <=-

    OK, so then we can agree that it's a Bad Thing.
    Very bad. Something to fight against and avoid at all costs.
    Yep.

    If you think the human body is sacred and we shoudln't taper with
    it, unless absolutely necessary... it's a bad thing. I just think
    that it'll be normalised in the future and people will happily
    pick up all kinds of augmentations to "improve" themselves. We've
    already progressed to wearable smart-tech... it'll only be a
    matter of time before implants become the norm. When you take
    this to its natural conclusion, it's where we are going.

    Wearable smart-tech is a far cry from neuro-implants. If you
    think that's where we're going, you're highly delusional.



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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 20:15:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Gamgee <=-

    We wouldn't, and we (in the USA) won't.

    The Euro-commies want that, though, and are already making
    progress in achieving it.

    There is some desire in Europe to stifle nations along with
    nationalism to maintain the European Union and expand on it.

    Yeah. That's what I already said.



    ... Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever.
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 20:20:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Gamgee <=-

    I have an intense belief that you are very wrong.

    I also have a strong belief that you should put the crack pipe
    down for a while.

    This is a serious discussion academics have been having since the
    1930s. Just because you've not come across social engineering, it
    doesn't mean that it's never going to happen. If you see
    something you disagree with, use your first-amendment right to
    argue against it.

    LOL! A serious discussion being held by freaks and whackos,
    maybe.

    Your condescending attitude is starting to piss me off. Of course
    I know what social engineering is, you little worm. Go read some
    more science fiction and then transpose it into your "reality".



    ... Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever.
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Nightfox on Sun Aug 16 20:32:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Nightfox to Moondog on Sun Aug 16 2020 09:55 am

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Moondog to Andeddu on Sat Aug 15 2020 11:53 pm

    luxury. When my nephew joined the Army, he had to learn how to address stamp an envelope. Phones were not allowed in basic until near the end the only way to talk back and forth was by letter. I was surpised when said the teachers never went over writing letters or addressing an envelope!

    Is that the kind of thing that needs to be taught in schools though? I don' earn easily at home from parents & such. I'm surprised you say your nephew

    Nightfox

    He joined right out of high school, so he never had much in the form of correspence or affairs of his own that came through the mail, and just about everything else he did was through online banking and online bill pay. When
    I was in high school in the late 80's, there was a class targetted towards
    the non-college crowd called family living. It taught how to balance a checkbook, create a budget, and how to operate within that budget, and other domestic stuff. I feel that type of course is essential, because some
    students are ready to leave home so fast after they graduate, they aren't likely to sit down with their parents or their parents are poorly equipped to teach them these skills.

    ---
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Sun Aug 16 20:41:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: MRO to Nightfox on Sun Aug 16 2020 01:42 pm

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Nightfox to Moondog on Sun Aug 16 2020 09:55 am

    Is that the kind of thing that needs to be taught in schools though? I don't remember that ever being taught in schools when I was growing up, and I know how to address and stamp an envelope. I always thought that just one of those things you can learn easily at home from parents & su


    YES. in school i was taught how to address an envelope. just like i was tau


    where did you grow up? it seems like you missed out on a lot of stuff in you

    In third grade our teacher taught us how to write letters and we all had pen pals from another school. Every other week we'd send a letter, then receive
    a letter. Our teacher was very happy to hear our remarks about the letters
    we received. Our counterparts at the other school had worse penmanship, spelling, and grammar. When the classes consolidated into one large class in junior high school, our average students were doing as well as their top students.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Ogg@VERT/EOTLBBS to All on Sun Aug 16 22:36:00 2020
    Hello Dennisk!

    ** On Monday 17.08.20 - 12:39, dennisk wrote to Andeddu:

    Star Trek is science fiction, based upon contemporary Western ideals
    which have been held by a small minority of the human population, for a
    tiny fraction of history (these ideals will become outdated soon). It
    is just a story. You may as well be using The Cat in the Hat the
    determine the future history of humanity, the latter is more realistic
    (I've seen a cat wear a hat). ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    That make me spill my drink. Good one.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Ogg@VERT/EOTLBBS to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 23:18:00 2020
    Hello Andeddu!

    ** On Friday 14.08.20 - 21:12, andeddu wrote to Ogg:

    Free will creates creatures that can go either wrong or right. As C.S.
    Lewis said "if a thing is free to be good, it can also be free to be
    bad - and free will is what has made evil possible."

    CS Lewis was a wise man. But I think in context he meant that free will
    was essential for humanity and not a blemish.


    Is a "world of autometa, of creatures that work like machines" a world
    worth creating? I think technocrats like Musk believe so. It's the only
    way mankind, as a species, will ever be able to move in one direction.

    The Musks and Bezos' and the Gates' could direct their monies to elevate
    the disparaged and the poor, right now.


    At its core, transhumanism is humanity's journey from organic beings
    into creatures of silicon. Our transformation will be complete once consciousness can be digitised... at which point we can then fully shed
    our biological form.

    Methinks you have been watching Upload and Altered Carbon too much. ;)

    ---
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  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Warpslide on Sun Aug 16 22:12:48 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Warpslide to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 2020 09:29 pm

    I've often wondered whether I'd see a North American Union in my lifetime. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Union

    Unlikely given that Trudeau has managed to take Canada from being at a high water mark for national unity under Harper, and fomented enough resentment that separatist opinions and beliefs are now the majority in a couple different regions; I.e. there's the possibility of Canada not being a thing anymore within our lifetimes, which is about 180 degrees from joining with the US and Mexico
    ---
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  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Dennisk on Sun Aug 16 22:16:30 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Underminer on Mon Aug 17 2020 08:38 am

    There's a strong case to be made that free will doesn't actually
    exist and is mostly illusory. That would make most of the argument
    fairly moot. ---
    No it wouldn't. What you are saying, is that if we have no free will, we must submit to other peoples standards? If we are found to have no free

    No, I'm saying that the argument that augmentation would remove free will is largely moot, at least in terms of how it would functionally change anything if free will doesn't actually exist.

    That doesn't have anything to do with whether any merger or development is objectively right or wrong, that's a separate discussion.
    ---
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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Moondog on Sun Aug 16 22:04:58 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Moondog to Nightfox on Sun Aug 16 2020 08:32 pm

    He joined right out of high school, so he never had much in the form of correspence or affairs of his own that came through the mail, and just about everything else he did was through online banking and online bill pay. When I was in high school in the late 80's, there was a class targetted towards the non-college crowd called family living. It taught how to balance a checkbook, create a budget, and how to operate within that budget, and other domestic stuff. I feel that type of course is essential, because some students are ready to leave home so fast after they graduate, they aren't likely to sit down with their parents or their parents are poorly equipped to teach them these skills.

    I think it would still be good to have a class in high school like that. Or even middle school. I think some of it is common sense (live within your means, don't spend more than you earn, etc.), but it's always good to have something to verify your common sense and drive home those things.

    Nightfox

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  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Nightfox on Mon Aug 17 00:29:11 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Nightfox to Moondog on Sun Aug 16 2020 10:04 pm

    I think it would still be good to have a class in high school like that. Or even middle school. I think some of it is common sense (live within your means, don't spend more than you earn, etc.), but it's always good to have something to verify your common sense and drive home those things.

    We had/have a required course in High Schools here that's ostensibly meant to be that sort of thing. Problem is it's completely useless as for one it ends up being taught by the guidance counsellor types who have no other teaching or life experience, and for two has been structured to be so emotionally accomodating for students that it's impossible to cover anything of substance. At least that's how it was 20-some years ago. But by the sounds of what I've heard from friends who have kids in that age range or recently graduated, it hasn't changed much.
    ---
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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 03:02:07 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Moondog on Sun Aug 16 2020 07:09 pm

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Moondog to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 2020 12:37 am

    I seriously doubt we can have a society where a janitor, an administrator for the government and a neuro surgeon will look upon each other as equal under the guise of the society. One such test of this I have proposed to others is imagine you are a decision maker in the government. Your only child comes
    down with a rare disease where the cure is hard to create, and limited supplie s exist. At the same time your child is ill, a janitor who sweep the floors and scrubs the toilets at the city hall also contracted the disease, and so do es a neuro surgeon. There is enough to treat one pers and dividing it
    will result in all three dying. Who gets the treatment? Does the child because of the emotional family connection, the neuro surgeon because his skill set, or the janitor because he is essential for ensuring the health and wellness of others by keeping highly trafficked areas sanitized? The are
    all important in to society (assuming the kid is not a whiny brat and wil fill an essential role to be determined later.)

    No one is suggesting they all look upon each other as equals. I think the is with this is that we are talking about different stages of society. The idea that we will merge with AI, is sort of the end-game... the end of humanity a the beginning of a completely new lifeform. If, in a world government, there peace and we live in an egalitarian society... no one is going to be FAR bet off than anyone else, it's just that there will be smaller perks as an administrator, doctor or scientist, rather than a janitor. You may have a slightly larger appartment, a larger TV to watch and tastier food to eat, bu your life and his are going to be comparable.

    As long as humans are involved, there will always be nepotism, bribary and corruption... free will breeds self-interest, therefore it doesn't matter if the administrator looks after his own child... as, in his world, the three aren't equal.


    It seems to me that you are talking about idealized communism now rather than actual hive-minds.

    In a hive-mind the doctor and the janitor don't exist. Only the Borg exists. And this is so because if the doctor existed, he would not want to spend the work needed to become a doctor when he can spend the work to work as a mopper and have a similar lifestyle.

    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Gamgee on Mon Aug 17 03:07:13 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Gamgee to Nightfox on Sun Aug 16 2020 08:06 pm

    I am positive that it's a fact that most (the VAST majority) will
    NOT accept machine implants.

    "Transhumanism" is a freak/niche idea that only a very few
    whack-jobs subscribe to. It's like they wanted to be science
    fiction writers, but failed, so came up with this idea to try to
    justify their distorted "thinking". It's right there beside the "flat-earthers" on the scale of stupid beliefs.

    To be honest, I see the appeal of machine implants in certain cases. Robotic arms, replacement eyes, that sort of thing has a place. Proper computer implants connected to a network? Not so much.

    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es

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  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Warpslide on Mon Aug 17 17:27:00 2020
    On 08-16-20 16:33, Warpslide wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    @VIA: VERT/NRBBS
    On 16 Aug 2020, Vk3jed said the following...

    So, after a Carrington type event, we'd have our electronics, but nothing power it with, except batteries and backup generators. And it would take to get the grid fixed.

    I remember a TV show from a few years back called Revolution. The
    premise was that all electronics stopped working & no one was sure why.
    Even batteries and newly generated electricity no longer works.

    In this post-apocalyptic governments fall & can no longer maintain
    order. Various areas of the U.S are controlled by different militias
    and their generals.

    Interesting premise, but there are possible scenarios in the real world. Terrorist nukes would do it, if they can get them onto missiles. :)

    The first season was alright, I remember thinking the second season got
    a little silly which is why it was never renewed for a third I suppose.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_(TV_series)

    Might have a look, got me curious. :)


    ... I watch what I eat... from the plate to the mouth.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
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  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 17:29:00 2020
    On 08-16-20 19:27, Andeddu wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    You seem to be talking about biological differences between the races.
    My argument was made purely on ideological consensus, as genetric
    traits between humans are (I would guess) not particularly deep... technology would overcome genetic/neurological advantages/disadvantages with ease. The diverse population of Star Trek Voyager are diverse in colour/creed but not in ideology. They are individuals who happen to
    agree on most things, even the non-humans.

    Where I question these approaches is neurodiversity also means a potential for out of the box ideas, whether in a practical, problem solving sense, or a purely ideological sense. And some of those ideas might be what we need to survive the next calamity (after COVID-19 ;) ).


    ... Would you like to wake up from this dream?
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  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 19:29:00 2020
    On 08-16-20 18:18, Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-

    The idea is to make us all the same. Once we all believe in the same thing, and we revere certain societal axioms, human civilisation will
    move in a single direction... rather than being disparate parts of a machine constantly tearing away at itself with unecessary conflict.

    "We are the Borg..." ;)


    ... A noisy exhaust to some almost amounts to a mating call.
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  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 03:33:04 2020
    On 8/15/2020 9:33 AM, Andeddu wrote:

    Don't the humans in Star Trek belong to the United Federation which Earth, as a
    nationless planet ruled by a World Government, is a part of? It's the same in films and shows like Serenity, Firefly and Starship Troopers, where Earth is depicted as a United Federation. There are many other examples of humanity acting as a collective but they elude me right now.

    Collectivist/Humanist/Communist governments tend not to work very well, especially in a vacuum. Even China wouldn't be doing very well without international trade. It's that negotiation from opposition that enables commerce, which enables growth. Without it, things tend to sink to the
    lowest common denominator. Also, TOS was definitely about commerce with
    other planets and the Federation was more of a common defense pact,
    which allows things to work.

    --
    Michael J. Ryan
    tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS

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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Underminer on Mon Aug 17 21:57:00 2020
    Underminer wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Underminer on Mon Aug 17 2020 08:38 am

    There's a strong case to be made that free will doesn't actually
    exist and is mostly illusory. That would make most of the argument
    fairly moot. ---
    No it wouldn't. What you are saying, is that if we have no free will, we must submit to other peoples standards? If we are found to have no free

    No, I'm saying that the argument that augmentation would remove free
    will is largely moot, at least in terms of how it would functionally change anything if free will doesn't actually exist.

    That doesn't have anything to do with whether any merger or development
    is objectively right or wrong, that's a separate discussion. ---

    But it would change our decision making, wouldn't it? And decisions would be based more on an external force, than an internal drive, right?


    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Tracker1 on Mon Aug 17 22:04:00 2020
    Tracker1 wrote to Andeddu <=-

    On 8/15/2020 9:33 AM, Andeddu wrote:

    Don't the humans in Star Trek belong to the United Federation which Earth,
    as
    a
    nationless planet ruled by a World Government, is a part of? It's the same
    in
    films and shows like Serenity, Firefly and Starship Troopers, where Earth is depicted as a United Federation. There are many other examples of humanity acting as a collective but they elude me right now.

    Collectivist/Humanist/Communist governments tend not to work very well, especially in a vacuum. Even China wouldn't be doing very well without international trade. It's that negotiation from opposition that
    enables commerce, which enables growth. Without it, things tend to
    sink to the lowest common denominator. Also, TOS was definitely about commerce with other planets and the Federation was more of a common defense pact, which allows things to work.

    This desire for a 'unified world' is a particularly modern Western trait. It has been mentioned in the past, in cosmopolitan socities, but is a pipe dream, and a bad idea I think.

    The world should remain divided and disparate for ever. Let nations separate and be themselves. Let there be people with different cultures, different ways of life, different ways of thinking.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Arelor on Mon Aug 17 08:02:00 2020
    Arelor wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Gamgee to Nightfox on Sun Aug 16 2020 08:06 pm

    I am positive that it's a fact that most (the VAST majority) will
    NOT accept machine implants.

    "Transhumanism" is a freak/niche idea that only a very few
    whack-jobs subscribe to. It's like they wanted to be science
    fiction writers, but failed, so came up with this idea to try to
    justify their distorted "thinking". It's right there beside the "flat-earthers" on the scale of stupid beliefs.

    To be honest, I see the appeal of machine implants in certain
    cases. Robotic arms, replacement eyes, that sort of thing has a
    place. Proper computer implants connected to a network? Not so
    much.

    Good point, and I agree on the medical/prosthetic limb stuff. The
    doofus in question is talking about brain implants to help the
    idea of a Borg/Skynet taking over all humans and controlling them.
    Quite a different thing, which would mean the end of the human
    race. Strangely, he seems to want that to happen.


    ... A woman drove me to drink, and I never had the courtesy to thank her.
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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to HusTler on Mon Aug 17 10:17:09 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: HusTler to Dennisk on Sun Aug 16 2020 09:03 am

    You guys watch and read too much Sci-Fi. Use your brain power to solve real world problems and stop debating futuristic nonense you've read about or saw in a movie. ;-) Do you have any ideas on how to eliminate racism and poverty in the world? Can AI and biological limbs help society with these issues?

    HusTler

    Yes... in a resourced based and social engineered society, poverty, racism and all the other ills of the world can be eliminated. No other civilisation in the history of man has achieved peace and ended suffering... with technology there is the prospect of making this happen.

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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Ogg on Mon Aug 17 10:32:54 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Ogg to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 2020 06:13 pm

    Would you be the first to volunteer to have your free will removed?

    I don't think it would be that bad. You'd live a life of willful ignorance in a world with no human caused suffering. If it's a world like 1984, then no... because life would be miserable and I would have neither free will nor any rights. If it's the benevolant scientific dictatorship depicted in Aldous Huxley's Brave New World, where people are brain-washed and heavily conditioned at an early age, but live pleasent lives, then yes... sign me up!

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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Ogg on Mon Aug 17 10:54:49 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Ogg to All on Sun Aug 16 2020 06:26 pm

    But, did you finish the story to the end?

    Also, do not forget that BNW (along with 1984) is just a story. Fiction.
    It is just one man's imagined world... "What if.." In other words, life does NOT have to be like that. They are not proclamations on ideal societies. Someone who considers themselves "unequal" (and better) would want to be in charge of the masses. How equal is that?

    Of course I finished the story... it's been a while but I remember the "savage" topping himself because he was unable to live in a world which is as structured and conditioned as this.

    These stories are not proclamations on ideal societies, however they are depictions of how things would appear should there be a concerted effort to socially engineer much of the populous. There's no denying it, life has changed substantially over the last fifty years... we are heading down the path of government decree.

    Anyone who wishes to control the direction of humanity is not a person who would consider him/herself equal to the masses. Unless there's a powerful AI in charge of all human resource allocation, there will be inequality. Even in the most egalitarian society, there will always be that 1% elite at the top of the pyramid. Those in charge always have better lives than those they rule over.

    ---
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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Nightfox on Mon Aug 17 11:11:14 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Nightfox to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 2020 04:48 pm

    I'm not sure it's a fact that humans will for sure all accept machine implants.. We don't know what will happen in the future, and I'm sure a lot of people will be opposed to it.

    Nightfox

    I am not sure if you speak to many Gen-Z type folk... they are not the kind of people to reject any kind of technological advancement if it makes their lives easier. There's a distinct differences between old boomers, millenials and the new generation... attitudes change over periods of time. You might oppose such implants because they're alien to you. Even getting something small like a microchip into a boomer/older millenial would be a challenge. We are products of our age, so if it's normal, and sold as a benefit, people are not going to be opposed to it.

    Smaller implants are going to make their way into the public consciousness over the next decade and will be heavily normalised within 10-20 years... implantable brain technology such as Neuralink should be considered somewhat normal by 2030. These products are going to appeal more to those who were born after the millenium rather than dinosaurs like us.

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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Warpslide on Mon Aug 17 11:19:18 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Warpslide to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 2020 09:27 pm

    Anything that's capable of independent thought is alive. So an AI which is capable of questioning its existence, is alive. Ever watch iRobot or Johnn Those things are alive, man!

    I used to love Short Circuit when I was a kid. "Wouldn't. You. Like. To. Be. A. Pepper. Too?"

    Haven't seen it in years, I wonder how it holds up in 2020.

    Hahaha, that scene always cracked me up as a kid... loved that movie!

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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Warpslide on Mon Aug 17 11:24:04 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Warpslide to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 2020 09:29 pm

    I've often wondered whether I'd see a North American Union in my lifetime.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Union

    Quite possible! There was an old plan to reshape the world into three seperate regions. North/South America, Europe merged with Africa and part of the Middle East and Asia with Russia. I can barely remember seeing it but it may have been a UN proposal circa 1950. Ah well, looks like it's in the back burner for now!

    ---
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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Dennisk on Mon Aug 17 11:55:07 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 2020 11:27 am

    The idea is to make us all the same. Once we all believe in the same thing, and we revere certain societal axioms, human civilisation will move in a single direction... rather than being disparate parts of a machine constantly tearing away at itself with unecessary conflict.

    Yes, we will have to rely on some kind of dictator to make this happen, as democracy is not a good model for "getting stuff done". But this would occur naturally should there ever be a world government. In that sense, we could achieve either a utopia, or potentially a dystopia.

    God, that sounds awful. The worst, most murderous regimes have this as their goal. Removing those that don't fit in.

    Make us the same as whose vision? Which dictator? Mine? Which axioms? Please don't tell me modern ones, I'll vomit!

    The system we have right now doesn't work. You know that, I know that. This World is imperfect, if only we could wipe away the impurities.

    This kind of Utopia would only work under the direction of a kind and benevolant World Dictator. A future of heavy automation and resource allocation, designed to uplift the poorest of those in society is surely preferable to the corrupt petty squabbling we have in this present day.

    Yes, such as system could be used for evil... Bolshevism in Russia, Nazi Germany, The Khmer Rogue in Cambodia, for instance... which is why we need an unshakeable consititution, a constitution that would limit the authority of any dictator in charge, and lock them into the framework of a good and humane system of control.

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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Dennisk on Mon Aug 17 12:09:31 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 2020 11:39 am

    I think that ideology and culture is to some degree, genetically determined in subtle ways. Perhaps not significantly, but I would be surprised if it wasn't.

    Star Trek is science fiction, based upon contemporary Western ideals which have been held by a small minority of the human population, for a tiny fraction of history (these ideals will become outdated soon). It is just a story. You may as well be using The Cat in the Hat the determine the future history of humanity, the latter is more realistic (I've seen a cat wear a hat).

    Obviously my thoughts on the future of humanity are heavily influnced by Western ideals, those ideals are all I know. If our current Western ideals become outdated, what do you think will replace them?

    My projections of humanity's future are based on the beliefs of people like Musk, Gates along with those weilding the power in Silicon Valley. Technology WILL play an all encompassing part of our lives, there's no arguing against that. Then again, US-China relations could disintegrate into a nuclear war, killing us all.

    Anything can happen!

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Gamgee on Mon Aug 17 12:12:58 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Gamgee to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 2020 07:53 pm

    I'm starting to wonder if you're some kind of troll who actually
    believes the horseshit you're shoveling. Still not quite certain
    if that's it, or if you're just a drug-damaged moron who likes to
    hear himself spout off.

    Either way, you're now in the loony-bin / whacko category, and
    mostly ignored.

    Good, please ignore. The only posts of yours I consider entertaining are are the pretty squabbles you have with MRO.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Gamgee on Mon Aug 17 12:15:22 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Gamgee to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 2020 08:14 pm

    Wearable smart-tech is a far cry from neuro-implants. If you
    think that's where we're going, you're highly delusional.

    Neuro implants are being developed RIGHT NOW. Keep up with the times...

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Gamgee on Mon Aug 17 12:18:02 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Gamgee to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 2020 08:20 pm

    LOL! A serious discussion being held by freaks and whackos,
    maybe.

    Your condescending attitude is starting to piss me off. Of course
    I know what social engineering is, you little worm. Go read some
    more science fiction and then transpose it into your "reality".

    You're pissing yourself off... stop reading my posts!

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Ogg on Mon Aug 17 12:23:20 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Ogg to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 2020 11:18 pm

    CS Lewis was a wise man. But I think in context he meant that free will
    was essential for humanity and not a blemish.

    CS Lewis, as a religous man, wrestled with the notion of free-will vs determinism. He would never subjugate man's free will or believe in such a notion, as that would be akin to playing god.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Arelor on Mon Aug 17 12:34:47 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Arelor to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 2020 03:02 am

    No one is suggesting they all look upon each other as equals. I think the is with this is that we are talking about different stages of society. The idea that we will merge with AI, is sort of the end-game... the end of humanity a the beginning of a completely new lifeform. If, in a world government, there peace and we live in an egalitarian society... no one is going to be FAR bet off than anyone else, it's just that there will be smaller perks as an administrator, doctor or scientist, rather than a janitor. You may have a slightly larger appartment, a larger TV to watch and tastier food to eat, bu your life and his are going to be comparable.

    As long as humans are involved, there will always be nepotism, bribary and corruption... free will breeds self-interest, therefore it doesn't matter if the administrator looks after his own child... as, in his world, the three aren't equal.


    It seems to me that you are talking about idealized communism now rather than actual hive-minds.

    In a hive-mind the doctor and the janitor don't exist. Only the Borg exists. And this is so because if the doctor existed, he would not want to spend the work needed to become a doctor when he can spend the work to work as a mopper and have a similar lifestyle.

    I did say that we were talking about different time periods... it's highly unlikely that we'll go from free-will and individualism straight to "The Borg". A system like idealised communism would have to appear first as world movements play out in stages.

    I think we've strayed waaay off topic anyway... this was just supposed to be about Musk's Neuralink brain-implants and now we're talking about systems of governemnt, haha.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Gamgee on Mon Aug 17 12:39:13 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Gamgee to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 2020 08:20 pm

    We've went massively off-topic anyway... this was supposed to be about Musk's Neuralink brain-implants, not a discussion on systems of governance utilising said technology.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Dennisk on Mon Aug 17 11:42:22 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Underminer on Mon Aug 17 2020 09:57 pm

    But it would change our decision making, wouldn't it? And decisions would be based more on an external force, than an internal drive, right?

    Maybe, maybe not. We're already essentially computers. We receive an input in the form of stimulus or information, and our decision making process is a set of chemical and electrical interactions. Yeah, the wiring may end up different, but the fundamental process may not change much and be more akin to what would happen now if you had more/different information available.
    ---
    Underminer
    The Undermine BBS - bbs.undermine.ca:423
    Fidonet: 1:342/17
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Undermine - bbs.undermine.ca:423
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 11:46:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Ogg <=-

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Ogg to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 2020 06:13 pm

    Would you be the first to volunteer to have your free will removed?

    I don't think it would be that bad. You'd live a life of willful
    ignorance

    You're already doing that.

    in a world with no human caused suffering. If it's a
    world like 1984, then no... because life would be miserable and I
    would have neither free will nor any rights. If it's the
    benevolant scientific dictatorship depicted in Aldous Huxley's
    Brave New World, where people are brain-washed and heavily
    conditioned at an early age, but live pleasent lives, then yes...
    sign me up!

    Yes, please do (sign up). A good way to cleanse the gene pool.


    ... Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 12:26:10 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to HusTler on Mon Aug 17 2020 10:17 am

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: HusTler to Dennisk on Sun Aug 16 2020 09:03 am

    You guys watch and read too much Sci-Fi. Use your brain power to solve r world problems and stop debating futuristic nonense you've read about or in a movie. ;-) Do you have any ideas on how to eliminate racism and pove in the world? Can AI and biological limbs help society with these issues?

    HusTler

    Yes... in a resourced based and social engineered society, poverty, racism a all the other ills of the world can be eliminated. No other civilisation in history of man has achieved peace and ended suffering... with technology the is the prospect of making this happen.


    This reminds me of an old story.

    A purple alien and a yellow alien are working in a lab, no stop, in a solution that will end racism forever. The purple alien comes up with a pill.

    "Hey, I have found a solution. Within this pill, lays the compound that will erase racism forever."

    "That sounds great," said the yello alien.

    "Now take this pill so you can turn purple like me!"
    /s

    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 12:32:20 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Arelor on Mon Aug 17 2020 12:34 pm

    A system like idealised communism would have to appear first as world moveme play out in stages.

    Then your attempt at Historical Materialism is dead on arrival, because nothing like idealised communism has been shown to work beyond extremely low scale.


    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Warpslide@VERT/NRBBS to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 15:16:00 2020
    On 17 Aug 2020, Andeddu said the following...

    I did say that we were talking about different time periods... it's highly unlikely that we'll go from free-will and individualism straight to "The B A system like idealised communism would have to appear first as world move play out in stages.

    I'd love to see new Star Trek series that focuses on the origins of The Borg.

    Star Trek: Collective

    Basically the whole thing would play out as a normal futuristic drama, maybe they get enough technology to visit a neighbouring planet and begin
    culturally assimilating them. Then it moves on from there bit by but.

    The series finale could end with the Borg Queen being assembled while
    ominous music plays and then the screen fades to black & credits come up.

    I think it could be a good series anyway...

    Or maybe one about the origins of The Q: Star Trek: Continuum


    Jay

    ... "The Borg?! Sounds Swedish..."

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/11 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Northern Realms BBS | bbs.nrbbs.net | Binbrook, ON
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Dennisk on Mon Aug 17 15:19:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to HusTler on Mon Aug 17 2020 11:22 am



    You guys watch and read too much Sci-Fi. Use your brain power to solve real world problems and stop debating futuristic nonense you've read about or saw in a movie. ;-) Do you have any ideas on how to eliminate racism and poverty in the world? Can AI and biological limbs help society with these issues?

    Greed is a bigger problem than those two.


    In a way, some of the worst behaviors and conditions are rooted in basic emoti ons. One of the things hat futurists look at more than politicians and
    social planners is the concept of culture. Rascism and poverty are products
    of culture. You can invest loads of money or push for improving education
    into a depressed area, but things won't change until you change the overall culture these areas created on their own. While I'm not a fna of Oprah
    Winfrey or any of her cult creations, her girls school in Africa is an
    attempt to build these girls up into self confident people who are not
    trapped by their surroundings. There was controversy a few year's back about visitation rights by these girl's parents. The claim was the school was stealing their souls or some crazy idea like that because they were isolated from the thing their family believed made them who they are. Apparently
    rape, incest, and liberal amounts of physical and verbal abuse are
    ingredients they feel their daughters were missing. It's hard to change a culture that does not want to be changed.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Gamgee on Mon Aug 17 15:37:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Gamgee to Nightfox on Sun Aug 16 2020 08:06 pm



    I am positive that it's a fact that most (the VAST majority) will
    NOT accept machine implants.

    "Transhumanism" is a freak/niche idea that only a very few
    whack-jobs subscribe to. It's like they wanted to be science
    fiction writers, but failed, so came up with this idea to try to
    justify their distorted "thinking". It's right there beside the "flat-earthers" on the scale of stupid beliefs.

    Many of these changes or movements may require a cultural revolution or a
    move that promotes cultural changes. Ease of use of technology has moved us beyong having a pc in our homes, and put them in our hands in the form of handheld devices. Technology changes so fast, I would be worried about cybern etic implants. Every time a new Iphone or Samsung phone comes out, people
    line up for it. Imagine every year and a half going to a clinic where they
    dig into your head or body to not just to replace a module, but also in some cases to tear out the obsolete or degrade interface components that are fused to bone and nerves? The technology you are born with will be obsolte in a
    few years or need replacing on a regular interval to adjust for growth or
    just plain keeping up with the Joneses regarding how much crap is sticking
    out of your head.

    If a segment of society heads that direction, we may see a split in society that stays "human" and sticks with external interfaces, while others dive
    into electromechanical or genetic enhancements. The Amish are an example of
    an ideolgy that shuns certain technologies, however among their practitioners there are degrees of acceptance, normally in the category of getting work
    done. Their ideology preaches "idle hands are devil's playground," and some groups translate that looser than others when it comes to electricity and
    power tools.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Gamgee on Mon Aug 17 15:45:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Gamgee to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 2020 08:14 pm



    Wearable smart-tech is a far cry from neuro-implants. If you
    think that's where we're going, you're highly delusional.




    I can see some devices that could be inserted sub-deramally such as a headset and microphone or motion sensors in people's hands that allow them to use virtual keyboards or other pointing means, however it would take require a
    real good reason to allow someone to dig in your body to fuse contacts to
    your nerves. Sticking a transducer under the skin is no big deal. Cutting holes and splicing body parts requires a completely different level of application.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Mon Aug 17 16:54:17 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Nightfox to Moondog on Sun Aug 16 2020 10:04 pm

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Moondog to Nightfox on Sun Aug 16 2020 08:32 pm

    He joined right out of high school, so he never had much in the form
    of correspence or affairs of his own that came through the mail, and
    just about everything else he did was through online banking and
    online bill pay. When I was in high school in the late 80's, there
    was a class targetted towards the non-college crowd called family
    living. It taught how to balance a checkbook, create a budget, and
    how to operate within that budget, and other domestic stuff. I feel
    that type of course is essential, because some students are ready to
    leave home so fast after they graduate, they aren't likely to sit
    down with their parents or their parents are poorly equipped to
    teach them these skills.


    it's a class called home economics.
    you probably took it.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 16:57:40 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Ogg on Mon Aug 17 2020 10:32 am

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Ogg to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 2020 06:13 pm

    Would you be the first to volunteer to have your free will removed?

    I don't think it would be that bad. You'd live a life of willful ignorance in a world with no human caused suffering. If it's a world like 1984, then no... because life would be miserable and I would have neither free will nor any rights. If it's the benevolant scientific dictatorship depicted in Aldous Huxley's Brave New World, where people are brain-washed and heavily conditioned at an early age, but live pleasent lives, then yes... sign me up!
    up!


    most people's free will is pretty fucked up as it is. having your free will removed might be an improvement for a lot of people.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 17:00:48 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Warpslide on Mon Aug 17 2020 11:19 am

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Warpslide to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 2020 09:27 pm

    Anything that's capable of independent thought is alive. So an AI
    which is capable of questioning its existence, is alive. Ever
    watch iRobot or Johnn Those things are alive, man!

    I used to love Short Circuit when I was a kid. "Wouldn't. You. Like.
    To. Be. A. Pepper. Too?"

    Haven't seen it in years, I wonder how it holds up in 2020.

    Hahaha, that scene always cracked me up as a kid... loved that movie! Hahaha, that scene always cracked me up as a kid... loved that movie!

    you get to see parker stephens do a stereotypical indian guy.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Warpslide on Mon Aug 17 15:44:25 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Warpslide to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 2020 03:16 pm

    The series finale could end with the Borg Queen being assembled while ominous music plays and then the screen fades to black & credits come up.

    I hate the Borg Queen as a concept. The Borg worked much better when there was no central authority and there was only The Borg, a single entity with a distributed consciousness.

    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Warpslide on Tue Aug 18 08:43:00 2020
    On 08-17-20 15:16, Warpslide wrote to Andeddu <=-

    I'd love to see new Star Trek series that focuses on the origins of The Borg.

    Star Trek: Collective

    Maybe a decent movie would do the trick there. :)

    Or maybe one about the origins of The Q: Star Trek: Continuum

    Now that would be intriguing!


    Jay

    ... "The Borg?! Sounds Swedish..."

    And good at tennis, no doubt. ;)


    ... "640K ought to be enough for anybody." Bill Gates '81
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From HusTler@VERT/HAVENS to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 18:43:36 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to HusTler on Mon Aug 17 2020 10:17 am

    You guys watch and read too much Sci-Fi. Use your brain power to solve
    real
    poverty in the world? Can AI and biological limbs help society with these issues?

    Yes... in a resourced based and social engineered society, poverty, racism and all the other ills of the world can be eliminated. No other civilisation in the history of man has achieved peace and ended suffering... with technology there is the prospect of making this happen.

    "Social engineered society"? That means controlling who we have sex with. No thanks. I enjoy screwing whoever I want, whenever I want. I perfer not having my sex managed thank you very much. Engineered genes? Like dog breeding right?



    HusTler
    havens.synchro.net:23

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Havens BBS havens.synchro.net
  • From Ogg@VERT/EOTLBBS to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 20:40:00 2020
    Hello Andeddu!

    ** On Monday 17.08.20 - 07:23, andeddu wrote to Ogg:

    CS Lewis was a wise man. But I think in context he meant that free
    will was essential for humanity and not a blemish.

    CS Lewis, as a religous man, wrestled with the notion of free-will vs determinism. He would never subjugate man's free will or believe in
    such a notion, as that would be akin to playing god.

    I am not sure whether you are saying that you agree with CS Lewis or not,
    but he also said, "free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the
    only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. A world of automata -of creatures that worked like machines- would hardly be worth creating."

    .: machine-like humans (via neuralink), not a good idea. ;)

    I've exhausted my interest to discuss this topic any further.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 21:34:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to HusTler on Mon Aug 17 2020 10:17 am

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: HusTler to Dennisk on Sun Aug 16 2020 09:03 am

    You guys watch and read too much Sci-Fi. Use your brain power to solve r world problems and stop debating futuristic nonense you've read about or in a movie. ;-) Do you have any ideas on how to eliminate racism and pove in the world? Can AI and biological limbs help society with these issues?

    HusTler

    Yes... in a resourced based and social engineered society, poverty, racism a all the other ills of the world can be eliminated. No other civilisation in history of man has achieved peace and ended suffering... with technology the is the prospect of making this happen.

    That says it will be done, not how it can be done.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Arelor on Mon Aug 17 22:57:34 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Arelor to Warpslide on Mon Aug 17 2020 03:44 pm

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Warpslide to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 2020 03:16 pm

    The series finale could end with the Borg Queen being assembled while
    ominous music plays and then the screen fades to black & credits come
    up.

    I hate the Borg Queen as a concept. The Borg worked much better when there was no central authority and there was only The Borg, a single entity with a distributed consciousness.

    --

    a hive needs a queen
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to HusTler on Mon Aug 17 22:58:34 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: HusTler to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 2020 06:43 pm

    "Social engineered society"? That means controlling who we have sex with. No thanks. I enjoy screwing whoever I want, whenever I want. I perfer not having my sex managed thank you very much. Engineered genes? Like dog breeding right?

    i know it might not be as good but in that situation you could give up
    rosey palm
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to MRO on Mon Aug 17 20:58:51 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: MRO to Nightfox on Mon Aug 17 2020 04:54 pm

    it's a class called home economics.
    you probably took it.

    I took a home economics class in 8th grade. How to address an envelope was not something they talked about in that class, but I already knew how to do it by then anyway. Also, the class was an elective; it wasn't a required class.

    The main things I remember doing in that class were some basic cooking (I already knew some basic cooking by that time) and sewing a shirt together (I've never done sewing since then, perhaps other than sewing a couple buttons onto some pants, which I probably could have figured out anyway).

    Nightfox

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Mon Aug 17 23:25:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: MRO to Nightfox on Mon Aug 17 2020 04:54 pm

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Nightfox to Moondog on Sun Aug 16 2020 10:04 pm

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Moondog to Nightfox on Sun Aug 16 2020 08:32 pm

    He joined right out of high school, so he never had much in the form
    of correspence or affairs of his own that came through the mail, and
    just about everything else he did was through online banking and
    online bill pay. When I was in high school in the late 80's, there
    was a class targetted towards the non-college crowd called family
    living. It taught how to balance a checkbook, create a budget, and
    how to operate within that budget, and other domestic stuff. I feel
    that type of course is essential, because some students are ready to
    leave home so fast after they graduate, they aren't likely to sit
    down with their parents or their parents are poorly equipped to
    teach them these skills.


    it's a class called home economics.
    you probably took it.

    Home ec and family living were different. Shop class filled up early so I
    had to take home ec in the 8th grade. The bulk of our time was learning how
    to cook and use the various kitchen appliances otherwise we were learning how to sew and mend clothing. there was some acedemic stuff such as nutrition thrown in, but family living was much more practical for for a high school senior that was not going the college route. I took the college bound block
    of classes, but heard from friends the teacher covered writing resumes and filling out applications. Sounds like simple stuff, but can be intimidating
    to someone who has never done it before.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Mon Aug 17 23:39:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: MRO to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 2020 04:57 pm

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Ogg on Mon Aug 17 2020 10:32 am

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Ogg to Andeddu on Sun Aug 16 2020 06:13 pm

    Would you be the first to volunteer to have your free will removed?

    I don't think it would be that bad. You'd live a life of willful ignora in a world with no human caused suffering. If it's a world like 1984, t no... because life would be miserable and I would have neither free wil nor any rights. If it's the benevolant scientific dictatorship depicted Aldous Huxley's Brave New World, where people are brain-washed and heav conditioned at an early age, but live pleasent lives, then yes... sign up!
    up!


    most people's free will is pretty fucked up as it is. having your free will

    The irony of having free will or self determination is you need to be careful how you practice it and the consequences of free will. Just because you can
    do something doesn't mean you should. If you want to function within a
    society you need to follow the rules. It doesn't matter whether you embrace the spirit of the law or just follow the rules out of fear of breaking the
    law. Unless you live in a locked down dictatorship, you have a right to leave or a right to petitition to change the law or you could withdraw from
    society. That was the draw behind moving to places such as the US or Australia.
    If you didn't fit in, you could either tolerate your condition or pack up and create your own private space.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Arelor on Mon Aug 17 23:48:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Arelor to Warpslide on Mon Aug 17 2020 03:44 pm

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Warpslide to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 2020 03:16 pm

    The series finale could end with the Borg Queen being assembled while ominous music plays and then the screen fades to black & credits come up.

    I hate the Borg Queen as a concept. The Borg worked much better when there w no central authority and there was only The Borg, a single entity with a distributed consciousness.

    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es


    The Borg Queen was a cheap plot device to place a singular face behind an otherwise decentralized enemy. I also never understood the importance of recovering components of deactivated Borg. If anything it would be better if disconnected Borg would self destruct as a means to sever themselves from the matrix.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Vk3jed on Mon Aug 17 23:53:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Vk3jed to Warpslide on Tue Aug 18 2020 08:43 am

    On 08-17-20 15:16, Warpslide wrote to Andeddu <=-

    I'd love to see new Star Trek series that focuses on the origins of The Borg.

    Star Trek: Collective

    Maybe a decent movie would do the trick there. :)

    Or maybe one about the origins of The Q: Star Trek: Continuum

    Now that would be intriguing!


    Jay


    I didn't care for Q either. If this collective was so highly evolved and
    self policing, Q would've neith existed or would've never been allowed to
    leave the collective. Forming the collective was a means of non-interference through isolation.

    Q was a re-hash of Trelane, the Squire of Gothos, except more powerful.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to HusTler on Tue Aug 18 00:02:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: HusTler to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 2020 06:43 pm



    "Social engineered society"? That means controlling who we have sex with. N



    Yep, some engineer wants to breed us all into being mindless, passive sheep, and beleives they are so much better than the rest of use they will protect
    us by breeding out "disagreeable" features rather than engineer a society
    where the benefits of society reinforce taking responsibility for ourselves.

    I'm amazed no one has brought up the scifi film Gattaca yet.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Andeddu on Tue Aug 18 20:58:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 2020 11:27 am

    The idea is to make us all the same. Once we all believe in the same thing, and we revere certain societal axioms, human civilisation will move in a single direction... rather than being disparate parts of a machine constantly tearing away at itself with unecessary conflict.

    Yes, we will have to rely on some kind of dictator to make this happen, as democracy is not a good model for "getting stuff done". But this would occur naturally should there ever be a world government. In that sense, we could achieve either a utopia, or potentially a dystopia.

    God, that sounds awful. The worst, most murderous regimes have this as their goal. Removing those that don't fit in.

    Make us the same as whose vision? Which dictator? Mine? Which axioms? Please don't tell me modern ones, I'll vomit!

    The system we have right now doesn't work. You know that, I know that. This World is imperfect, if only we could wipe away the impurities.

    This kind of Utopia would only work under the direction of a kind and benevolant World Dictator. A future of heavy automation and resource allocation, designed to uplift the poorest of those in society is
    surely preferable to the corrupt petty squabbling we have in this
    present day.

    Yes, such as system could be used for evil... Bolshevism in Russia,
    Nazi Germany, The Khmer Rogue in Cambodia, for instance... which is why
    we need an unshakeable consititution, a constitution that would limit
    the authority of any dictator in charge, and lock them into the
    framework of a good and humane system of control.

    Where has this EVER worked? And where are you going to find a benevolent dicatator, that won't be unseated, undermined, removed, killed by the less benevolent?

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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Andeddu on Tue Aug 18 21:02:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 2020 11:39 am

    I think that ideology and culture is to some degree, genetically determined in subtle ways. Perhaps not significantly, but I would be surprised if it wasn't.

    Star Trek is science fiction, based upon contemporary Western ideals which have been held by a small minority of the human population, for a tiny fraction of history (these ideals will become outdated soon). It is just a story. You may as well be using The Cat in the Hat the determine the future history of humanity, the latter is more realistic (I've seen a cat wear a hat).

    Obviously my thoughts on the future of humanity are heavily influnced
    by Western ideals, those ideals are all I know. If our current Western ideals become outdated, what do you think will replace them?

    My projections of humanity's future are based on the beliefs of people like Musk, Gates along with those weilding the power in Silicon Valley. Technology WILL play an all encompassing part of our lives, there's no arguing against that. Then again, US-China relations could disintegrate into a nuclear war, killing us all.

    Anything can happen!

    I think Musk is disconnected with reality to some degree, as is most of Silicon Valley. These people are the last people I would go to, to get advice on where humanity should go. Why would you think someone who lives in a bubble, would understand how the world works? These are business people, and they have geared their knowledge towards their trade.

    What will replace our ideals? I'm not sure, but we can see that populism is a growing force, people are rejecting some ideals. The EU is falling apart, the TPP is dead, people are wanting less and less this future of global hegemony. We saw Brexit, and we will see soon, I think a move away from "diversity" as an ideal. We are halfway there, as this idea now smells of a bad religion and is a source of conflict. We will begin to realise that these high ideals don't work. And I won't miss them either.

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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Underminer on Tue Aug 18 21:05:00 2020
    Underminer wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Underminer on Mon Aug 17 2020 09:57 pm

    But it would change our decision making, wouldn't it? And decisions would be based more on an external force, than an internal drive, right?

    Maybe, maybe not. We're already essentially computers. We receive an
    input in the form of stimulus or information, and our decision making process is a set of chemical and electrical interactions. Yeah, the
    wiring may end up different, but the fundamental process may not change much and be more akin to what would happen now if you had
    more/different information available. ---
    Underminer
    The Undermine BBS - bbs.undermine.ca:423

    No, we are not essentially computers. You won't find in our brand and gates, or gates, flip-flops, microcode. Our memory works completely different, as does our processing. We don't work in binary, or definite, strict logic. Our brain uses a vastly different model, so any comparison which goes into more depth than "electrical signals" is useless. Computers don't understand context, aren't conscious, and cannot think. They don't fall for visual or auditory illusions.

    I think when we map how the brain works, we will see that it works using an alien computation model to what our machines do.

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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Moondog on Tue Aug 18 21:14:00 2020
    Moondog wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to HusTler on Mon Aug 17 2020 11:22 am



    You guys watch and read too much Sci-Fi. Use your brain power to solve real world problems and stop debating futuristic nonense you've read about or saw in a movie. ;-) Do you have any ideas on how to eliminate racism and poverty in the world? Can AI and biological limbs help society with these issues?

    Greed is a bigger problem than those two.


    In a way, some of the worst behaviors and conditions are rooted in
    basic emoti ons. One of the things hat futurists look at more than politicians and social planners is the concept of culture. Rascism and poverty are products of culture. You can invest loads of money or push for improving education into a depressed area, but things won't change until you change the overall culture these areas created on their own. While I'm not a fna of Oprah Winfrey or any of her cult creations, her girls school in Africa is an attempt to build these girls up into self confident people who are not trapped by their surroundings. There was controversy a few year's back about visitation rights by these girl's parents. The claim was the school was stealing their souls or some
    crazy idea like that because they were isolated from the thing their family believed made them who they are. Apparently rape, incest, and liberal amounts of physical and verbal abuse are ingredients they feel their daughters were missing. It's hard to change a culture that does
    not want to be changed.

    Poverty has always been with us, because of scarcity. It could be argued it is not necessary now, but we live in exceptional times of surplus, which isn't the norm. As for racism, the term is so overused I don't pay attention to it anymore. Just me existing in a place is considered "racism" by some, so nuts to that.

    The reason that I think these implants are dumb ideas, is because the person making the idea lacks self-awareness and understanding of the human conditions.
    Our problems aren't information, knowledge, they are behavioural, and people promote things for self serving interests, INCLUDING ideas such as implants and dictatorships of the benevolent. Everyone who imagines a utopia, imagines one as per THEIR model. So it is automatically oppressive, because it is person X who is imposing THEIR vision on us all. I for example, want to live in a world where different peoples still exist, where nations DO favour their own over others and resist homogenisation. I'm for the powerfull bucking social and moral trends (as long as they don't complete power), for struggle, conflict, antagonism. Maybe, just maybe some people with 'deplorable' views are actually holding views that make our world better, but we are too prejudiced to see it. The existence of that antagonism is good, as long as there is balance.

    Development of a human being needs discipline, limits and self-awareness. Our world would be a better place when people learn to control themselves, manage themselves, overcome themselves. A soft life doesn't do that.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
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  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Moondog on Tue Aug 18 21:03:00 2020
    On 08-17-20 23:53, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    I didn't care for Q either. If this collective was so highly evolved
    and self policing, Q would've neith existed or would've never been
    allowed to leave the collective. Forming the collective was a means of non-interference through isolation.

    Q (as in the most frequent member of the Q Contunum seen on the show) did have his moments. :)

    Q was a re-hash of Trelane, the Squire of Gothos, except more powerful.

    I didn't think of mthat, but yes that makes sense.



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    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Dennisk on Tue Aug 18 07:51:00 2020
    Dennisk wrote to Andeddu <=-

    Yes, such as system could be used for evil... Bolshevism in Russia,
    Nazi Germany, The Khmer Rogue in Cambodia, for instance... which is why
    we need an unshakeable consititution, a constitution that would limit
    the authority of any dictator in charge, and lock them into the
    framework of a good and humane system of control.

    Where has this EVER worked? And where are you going to find a
    benevolent dicatator, that won't be unseated, undermined,
    removed, killed by the less benevolent?

    Great point - it has NEVER worked, and never would, for just the
    reasons you mention above.

    This Andeddu person is seriously delusional. Over the edge, even.



    ... He does the work of 3 Men...Moe, Larry & Curly
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Vk3jed on Tue Aug 18 19:33:55 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Vk3jed to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 2020 05:29 pm

    Where I question these approaches is neurodiversity also means a potential for out of the box ideas, whether in a practical, problem solving sense, or a purely ideological sense. And some of those ideas might be what we need to survive the next calamity (after COVID-19 ;) ).

    I've never heard of neurodiversity. I am not saying it's not a thing but I have never come across any studies indicating that people of differnent races think differently. I understand cultural difference, however I think you're suggesting the races think differently even within the same ideological structures.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Tracker1 on Tue Aug 18 19:49:22 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Tracker1 to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 2020 03:33 am

    Collectivist/Humanist/Communist governments tend not to work very well, especially in a vacuum. Even China wouldn't be doing very well without international trade. It's that negotiation from opposition that enables commerce, which enables growth. Without it, things tend to sink to the lowest common denominator. Also, TOS was definitely about commerce with other planets and the Federation was more of a common defense pact,
    which allows things to work.

    China is a manufacturing/technological superpower. Once international trade dies off, Chinese firms will have to pay their worker's a fair wage so that they can purchase the goods they produce. They'll be landed with the same economical enviroment the USA had back in the 1950s-1980s when they too were a manufacturing superpower.

    I am not an advocate of Communism though.

    ---
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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Arelor on Tue Aug 18 20:02:39 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Arelor to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 2020 12:32 pm

    Then your attempt at Historical Materialism is dead on arrival, because nothing like idealised communism has been shown to work beyond extremely low scale.

    The idea would be to create a world similar to that in BNW, a scientific/communistic dictatorship. It is, however, just a book & I am well aware all Communist regimes begin with good intentions prior to ending in bloodshed. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to HusTler on Tue Aug 18 20:19:43 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: HusTler to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 2020 06:43 pm

    "Social engineered society"? That means controlling who we have sex with. No thanks. I enjoy screwing whoever I want, whenever I want. I perfer not having my sex managed thank you very much. Engineered genes? Like dog breeding right?

    Well you wanted a solution to racism, poverty, etc... have you got better idea?

    In this world you can have sex with a single partner on Tuesday and Orgy-Porgy (group sex) every second Thursday. Not so bad now is it?

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Ogg on Tue Aug 18 20:25:59 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Ogg to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 2020 08:40 pm

    I am not sure whether you are saying that you agree with CS Lewis or not, but he also said, "free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. A world of automata -of creatures that worked like machines- would hardly be worth creating."

    I can see the validity of both sides of the argument. There's so much barbarity and cruelty in the world that I would be tempted to remove man's free will, if only to end the suffering.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Moondog on Tue Aug 18 20:38:21 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Moondog to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 2020 09:34 pm

    Yes... in a resourced based and social engineered society, poverty, racism a all the other ills of the world can be eliminated. No other civilisation in history of man has achieved peace and ended suffering... with technology the is the prospect of making this happen.

    That says it will be done, not how it can be done.

    Through an idological consensus, the less reputable ideas many individuals harbour could be eliminated.

    Diversity in ideas invariably ends in conflict. The idea of "the individual" would have to end, and replaced with ideas of "the collective".

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Moondog on Tue Aug 18 20:49:39 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Moondog to HusTler on Tue Aug 18 2020 12:02 am

    Yep, some engineer wants to breed us all into being mindless, passive sheep, and beleives they are so much better than the rest of use they will protect us by breeding out "disagreeable" features rather than engineer a society where the benefits of society reinforce taking responsibility for ourselves.

    I'm amazed no one has brought up the scifi film Gattaca yet.

    Gattaca is one of my favourite films, an absolute classic.

    Perhaps there's a way to engineer empathy into people. I think there's a distinct lack of it in this day and age. An empathetic person is a good person... we can agree that we don't need any more evil people.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Dennisk on Tue Aug 18 20:54:37 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Tue Aug 18 2020 08:58 pm

    Where has this EVER worked? And where are you going to find a benevolent dicatator, that won't be unseated, undermined, removed, killed by the less benevolent?

    It's rare, I admit. There have been GOOD Roman Emperors, which is why their civilisation lasted so long. The problem with dictatorships is that it takes only one bad egg to burn the entire society to the ground.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Dennisk on Tue Aug 18 21:06:25 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Tue Aug 18 2020 09:02 pm

    I think Musk is disconnected with reality to some degree, as is most of Silicon Valley. These people are the last people I would go to, to get advice on where humanity should go. Why would you think someone who lives in a bubble, would understand how the world works? These are business people, and they have geared their knowledge towards their trade.

    What will replace our ideals? I'm not sure, but we can see that populism is a growing force, people are rejecting some ideals. The EU is falling apart, the TPP is dead, people are wanting less and less this future of global hegemony. We saw Brexit, and we will see soon, I think a move away from "diversity" as an ideal. We are halfway there, as this idea now smells of a bad religion and is a source of conflict. We will begin to realise that

    And why is populism, nationalism and anti-globalism so fiercely opposed by the media? Do you view Trump as someone railing against the global hegemony?

    I can't see anything but conflict in our immediate future. Politics (in the US in particular) has never been so toxic.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Dennisk on Tue Aug 18 21:19:44 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Moondog on Tue Aug 18 2020 09:14 pm

    The reason that I think these implants are dumb ideas, is because the person making the idea lacks self-awareness and understanding of the human conditions.
    Our problems aren't information, knowledge, they are behavioural, and people promote things for self serving interests, INCLUDING ideas such as implants and dictatorships of the benevolent. Everyone who imagines a utopia, imagines one as per THEIR model. So it is automatically oppressive, because it is person X who is imposing THEIR vision on us all. I for example, want to live in a world where different peoples still exist, where nations DO favour their own over others and resist homogenisation. I'm for the powerfull bucking social and moral trends (as long as they don't complete power), for struggle, conflict, antagonism. Maybe, just maybe some people with 'deplorable' views are actually holding views that make our world better, but we are too prejudiced to see it. The existence of that antagonism is good, as long as there is balance.

    Development of a human being needs discipline, limits and self-awareness. Our world would be a better place when people learn to control themselves, manage themselves, overcome themselves. A soft life doesn't do that.

    Sam Harris posits that suffering is the only thing we can say is objectively bad. A world with LESS suffering is objectively better than a world with MORE suffering. Although basic, I think he's right.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Tue Aug 18 11:02:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: MRO to Arelor on Mon Aug 17 2020 10:57 pm

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Arelor to Warpslide on Mon Aug 17 2020 03:44 pm

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Warpslide to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 2020 03:16 pm

    The series finale could end with the Borg Queen being assembled while
    ominous music plays and then the screen fades to black & credits come
    up.

    I hate the Borg Queen as a concept. The Borg worked much better when th was no central authority and there was only The Borg, a single entity w a distributed consciousness.

    --

    a hive needs a queen

    They are a collective conscious, not really a hive. No need for hierarchy since any decision is a consensus of everyone's thoughts.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Tue Aug 18 11:07:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: MRO to HusTler on Mon Aug 17 2020 10:58 pm

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: HusTler to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 2020 06:43 pm

    "Social engineered society"? That means controlling who we have sex wit No thanks. I enjoy screwing whoever I want, whenever I want. I perfer n having my sex managed thank you very much. Engineered genes? Like dog breeding right?

    i know it might not be as good but in that situation you could give up
    rosey palm

    I picture it being like the relaxation device in THX1138 with the artifical hand.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Dennisk on Tue Aug 18 11:17:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Tue Aug 18 2020 08:58 pm



    Where has this EVER worked? And where are you going to find a benevolent dicatator, that won't be unseated, undermined, removed, killed by the less benevolent?


    I doubt one leader or one set of rules would work for the whole world. Every region has it's own diverse combination of climate and lay of the land. Different resources. What works well in the city might not apply in rural regions. Rules regulating dense forest don't apply in sparse deserts. Regardless how much you'd want it to go away, every nation, state, country or district will have it' own identities and sub cultures. Finding a common thread between everyone they are willing to agree on will be hard.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Dennisk on Tue Aug 18 11:38:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Underminer on Tue Aug 18 2020 09:05 pm


    No, we are not essentially computers. You won't find in our brand and gates or gates, flip-flops, microcode. Our memory works completely different, as does our processing. We don't work in binary, or definite, strict logic. O brain uses a vastly different model, so any comparison which goes into more depth than "electrical signals" is useless. Computers don't understand context, aren't conscious, and cannot think. They don't fall for visual or auditory illusions.

    I think when we map how the brain works, we will see that it works using an alien computation model to what our machines do.


    We are machines. Organic electro chemical machines that are way more
    complex than any concepts we currently use to crunch numbers. Some functions of our bodies have analogs in non-organic mechanics and electronics, howver they are smaller components of more complex systems. Memory systems alone blows scientists minds because they are aware of generic nodes, however the data
    is stored and multiplexed in ways that currently don't make sense.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Dennisk on Tue Aug 18 11:52:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Moondog on Tue Aug 18 2020 09:14 pm


    Development of a human being needs discipline, limits and self-awareness. O world would be a better place when people learn to control themselves, manag themselves, overcome themselves. A soft life doesn't do that.


    The first step in moving forward is discovering what holds you back.
    Tradition and heritage may be better suited for history books, since
    everyone's identity is how they personally translate what was said and done
    in the past. If we adhered to all tradition and the old ways, we'd still be hunter gatherers relying on caves.

    I agree self responsibility and discipline are important tools for improving people's status in lives. Only so much can be blamed on others and some obstacles are only hard to overcome because of lack of self confidence or
    self esteem.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Vk3jed on Tue Aug 18 12:06:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Vk3jed to Moondog on Tue Aug 18 2020 09:03 pm

    On 08-17-20 23:53, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    I didn't care for Q either. If this collective was so highly evolved and self policing, Q would've neith existed or would've never been allowed to leave the collective. Forming the collective was a means of non-interference through isolation.

    Q (as in the most frequent member of the Q Contunum seen on the show) did ha his moments. :)

    Q was a re-hash of Trelane, the Squire of Gothos, except more powerful.

    I didn't think of mthat, but yes that makes sense.




    Another common them in Trek was overcoming god-like enemies. In some cases
    the god manifested itself in the form of a machine, and was defeated with logic, or it was a being of advanced abilities which could be confused and defeated by playing with it's emotions. Third category required logic and emotion to spring the trap.

    Regardless, the crew comes out winning because they rose to meet the challenge or the enemy under estimated what humanity is capable of.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Gamgee on Tue Aug 18 12:23:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Gamgee to Dennisk on Tue Aug 18 2020 07:51 am

    Dennisk wrote to Andeddu <=-

    Yes, such as system could be used for evil... Bolshevism in Russia, Nazi Germany, The Khmer Rogue in Cambodia, for instance... which is why we need an unshakeable consititution, a constitution that would limit the authority of any dictator in charge, and lock them into the framework of a good and humane system of control.

    Where has this EVER worked? And where are you going to find a benevolent dicatator, that won't be unseated, undermined,
    removed, killed by the less benevolent?

    Great point - it has NEVER worked, and never would, for just the
    reasons you mention above.

    This Andeddu person is seriously delusional. Over the edge, even.



    ... He does the work of 3 Men...Moe, Larry & Curly

    Tito and Saddam Hussein only stayed in power because they created a system where the deck was stacked in a way their opponents were too busy fighting
    over their differences rather than joining sides to defeat a common enemy. Tito kept the Serbs, Croats, and Muslims in check the same way Hussein kept
    the Sunni, Shia and Kurds in check. If any group appeared to be showing an advantage, use scare tactics to gather the other minorities to rally against them.

    Technically speaking they were both successful. Tito was defeated by
    death, and Hussein's downfall was in threatening outside nations. No
    internal forces could take them down.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Tue Aug 18 17:10:54 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Nightfox to MRO on Mon Aug 17 2020 08:58 pm

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: MRO to Nightfox on Mon Aug 17 2020 04:54 pm

    it's a class called home economics.
    you probably took it.

    I took a home economics class in 8th grade. How to address an envelope was not something they talked about in that class, but I already knew how to do it by then anyway. Also, the class was an elective; it wasn't a required class.

    The main things I remember doing in that class were some basic cooking (I already knew some basic cooking by that time) and sewing a shirt together (I've never done sewing since then, perhaps other than sewing a couple buttons onto some pants, which I probably could have figured out anyway).



    you were in a crappy school system.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Dennisk on Tue Aug 18 16:16:56 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Underminer on Tue Aug 18 2020 09:05 pm

    No, we are not essentially computers. You won't find in our brand and gates, or gates, flip-flops, microcode. Our memory works completely

    You're worrying about levels of sophistication and architecture. My point is that we do operate on a pretty binary level. You even expect it from other people in your interactions in being able to predict reactions. If you get a different response you chalk that up to the environmental circumstances or differing past experience. The underlying point is the same: it's a series of chemical and electrical interactions. We can expect that with a given set of inputs, we'll get a given set of outputs every time. The fact we can't predict exactly which inputs map to which outputs is just a matter of complexity. That's why there's thought even as far as that the experience consciousness may be more of an emergent phenomenom.
    ---
    Underminer
    The Undermine BBS - bbs.undermine.ca:423
    Fidonet: 1:342/17
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Undermine - bbs.undermine.ca:423
  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Vk3jed on Tue Aug 18 16:17:53 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Vk3jed to Moondog on Tue Aug 18 2020 09:03 pm

    Q was a re-hash of Trelane, the Squire of Gothos, except more
    powerful.

    There have been arguments made that Trelane was a Q. Maybe even the Q we know. ---
    Underminer
    The Undermine BBS - bbs.undermine.ca:423
    Fidonet: 1:342/17
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  • From The Lizard Master@VERT/NITEEYES to Vk3jed on Tue Aug 18 14:26:32 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Vk3jed to Moondog on Tue Aug 18 2020 09:03 pm

    I didn't care for Q either. If this collective was so highly evolved and self policing, Q would've neith existed or would've never been allowed to leave the collective. Forming the collective was a means of non-interference through isolation.

    Q (as in the most frequent member of the Q Contunum seen on the show) did have his moments. :)

    Q was a re-hash of Trelane, the Squire of Gothos, except more powerful.

    I didn't think of mthat, but yes that makes sense.

    I love when I beat Q in TNG pinball game. He usally wins though.

    ---TLM

    ---
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Tue Aug 18 19:11:03 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Moondog to MRO on Mon Aug 17 2020 11:25 pm

    Home ec and family living were different. Shop class filled up early so I had to take home ec in the 8th grade. The bulk of our time was learning how to cook and use the various kitchen appliances otherwise we were learning how to sew and mend clothing. there was some acedemic stuff such as nutrition thrown in, but family living was much more practical for for a high school senior that was not going the college route. I took the college bound block of classes, but heard from friends the teacher covered writing resumes and filling out applications. Sounds like simple stuff, but can be intimidating to someone who has never done it before.


    i guess this just shows how fucked up our educational systems were.
    in my highschool there werent any 'college route' courses.
    ---
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Andeddu on Tue Aug 18 19:56:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Arelor <=-

    Then your attempt at Historical Materialism is dead on arrival, because nothing like idealised communism has been shown to work beyond extremely low scale.

    The idea would be to create a world similar to that in BNW, a scientific/communistic dictatorship. It is, however, just a book
    & I am well aware all Communist regimes begin with good
    intentions prior to ending in bloodshed. The road to hell is
    paved with good intentions.

    You have an extraordinary talent in saying completely opposing
    things, all in one paragraph, and thinking that it makes sense to
    anyone other than yourself. Extraordinary!



    ... Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever.
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Andeddu on Tue Aug 18 19:58:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Ogg <=-

    I am not sure whether you are saying that you agree with CS Lewis or not, but he also said, "free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. A world of automata -of creatures that worked like machines- would hardly be worth creating."

    I can see the validity of both sides of the argument.

    Apparently you are the *ONLY* one who can...

    There's so
    much barbarity and cruelty in the world that I would be tempted
    to remove man's free will, if only to end the suffering.

    Well, thankfully, you have neither the authority, nor the ability
    to do such a thing. Oh, and not enough ammo, either.



    ... Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever.
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Andeddu on Tue Aug 18 20:02:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Moondog <=-

    Yes... in a resourced based and social engineered society, poverty, racism a all the other ills of the world can be eliminated. No other civilisation in history of man has achieved peace and ended suffering... with technology the is the prospect of making this happen.

    That says it will be done, not how it can be done.

    Through an idological consensus, the less reputable ideas many
    individuals harbour could be eliminated.

    Oh yeah? Who decides who gets to decide what ideas are "less
    reputable"?

    Diversity in ideas invariably ends in conflict. The idea of "the individual" would have to end, and replaced with ideas of "the collective".

    Take your science fiction and communism-promoting bullshit ideas
    somewhere else, doofus. You're a blithering idiot.



    ... Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever.
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Andeddu on Tue Aug 18 20:05:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Where has this EVER worked? And where are you going to find a benevolent dicatator, that won't be unseated, undermined, removed, killed by the less benevolent?

    It's rare, I admit.

    It's not rare. It's non-existant.

    There have been GOOD Roman Emperors, which is
    why their civilisation lasted so long. The problem with
    dictatorships is that it takes only one bad egg to burn the
    entire society to the ground.

    And yet... you promote dictatorship, borg-collective-ism, removal
    of people's free will, creation of robot-drones, and one big New
    World Order.

    Get some mental help before you go any further into the deep end.



    ... Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever.
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  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Andeddu on Wed Aug 19 13:35:00 2020
    On 08-18-20 19:33, Andeddu wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    I've never heard of neurodiversity. I am not saying it's not a thing
    but I have never come across any studies indicating that people of differnent races think differently. I understand cultural difference, however I think you're suggesting the races think differently even
    within the same ideological structures.

    Nothing to do with racial differences, these are human differences that are spread throughout different populations. It refers to autism, ADHD, dyslexia, and a number of other neurological differences. These people often have out of the box ways of solving problems, that 90% or more of the population would never have thought, and most of the remaining 10% probably wouldn't have
    ither.


    ... The rich will do anything for the poor but get off their backs.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Moondog on Wed Aug 19 13:36:00 2020
    On 08-18-20 12:06, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Another common them in Trek was overcoming god-like enemies. In some
    cases the god manifested itself in the form of a machine, and was
    defeated with logic, or it was a being of advanced abilities which
    could be confused and defeated by playing with it's emotions. Third category required logic and emotion to spring the trap.

    Regardless, the crew comes out winning because they rose to meet the challenge or the enemy under estimated what humanity is capable of.

    Yes, I'd agree with all of that as well.


    ... The brain is as strong as its weakest think.
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  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Underminer on Wed Aug 19 13:37:00 2020
    On 08-18-20 16:17, Underminer wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    @VIA: VERT/UNDRMINE
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Vk3jed to Moondog on Tue Aug 18 2020 09:03 pm

    Q was a re-hash of Trelane, the Squire of Gothos, except more
    powerful.

    There have been arguments made that Trelane was a Q. Maybe even the Q
    we know. ---

    Can't rule that one out. :)


    ... I had a troubled childhood; I was breast fed from falsies.
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  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to The Lizard Master on Wed Aug 19 13:38:00 2020
    On 08-18-20 14:26, The Lizard Master wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    I love when I beat Q in TNG pinball game. He usally wins though.

    Haha in DSP and software defined radio, I and Q have to work together. ;)

    (wonder if anyone else will get that one ;) ).


    ... Ham radio operators do it with frequency.
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  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Vk3jed on Wed Aug 19 03:52:13 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Vk3jed to The Lizard Master on Wed Aug 19 2020 01:38 pm

    Haha in DSP and software defined radio, I and Q have to work together. ;) (wonder if anyone else will get that one ;) ).

    Pretty sure there's a few Hams about ;)
    ---
    Underminer
    The Undermine BBS - bbs.undermine.ca:423
    Fidonet: 1:342/17
    ---
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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Andeddu on Wed Aug 19 22:00:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Tue Aug 18 2020 08:58 pm

    Where has this EVER worked? And where are you going to find a benevolent dicatator, that won't be unseated, undermined, removed, killed by the less benevolent?

    It's rare, I admit. There have been GOOD Roman Emperors, which is why their civilisation lasted so long. The problem with dictatorships is
    that it takes only one bad egg to burn the entire society to the
    ground.

    The Roman Empire, at its most benevolent had morals and ethics which would make people balk today. Yes, there have been good rulers, but no long lasting Communist society at any appreciable scale.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Andeddu on Wed Aug 19 22:09:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Tue Aug 18 2020 09:02 pm

    I think Musk is disconnected with reality to some degree, as is most of Silicon Valley. These people are the last people I would go to, to get advice on where humanity should go. Why would you think someone who lives in a bubble, would understand how the world works? These are business people, and they have geared their knowledge towards their trade.

    What will replace our ideals? I'm not sure, but we can see that populism is a growing force, people are rejecting some ideals. The EU is falling apart, the TPP is dead, people are wanting less and less this future of global hegemony. We saw Brexit, and we will see soon, I think a move away from "diversity" as an ideal. We are halfway there, as this idea now smells of a bad religion and is a source of conflict. We will begin to realise that

    And why is populism, nationalism and anti-globalism so fiercely opposed
    by the media? Do you view Trump as someone railing against the global hegemony?

    I can't see anything but conflict in our immediate future. Politics (in the US in particular) has never been so toxic.

    I think Trump partly is against the establishmnent, not because he's not part of it, but because of conflict of interest. He does seem to have a different worldview. As for the media, the media are part of an established ruling "elite" (and I use the term "elite" loosely). It was during the 2016 when the mask came off, that even they admitted that there IS an establishment. And there is, you get into power by meeting a particular image, a particular way of thinking, a particular mode of though and a particular ethical stance. You can see this in many parts of society. "Professional" is another euphemism. And that particular class of people are failing to deliver.

    Conflict is always in our future. "Only the dead are safe; Only the dead have seen the end of war", said George Santayana.

    We are at this stage PRECISELY because the people who want to keep their power (ie, the establishment), utterly failed. The solution is most definately not to keep the status quo, that will only make things work. The riots and division in Europe and problems with migration are due to this idiotic idea of "open borders". Diversity is THE reason we have more and more laws against speech, why there is so much division between us. Identity politics and "socialism" is the reason for so much division.

    It will take some turmoil to set things right, but its too late for any other alternative.

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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Andeddu on Wed Aug 19 22:16:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Moondog on Tue Aug 18 2020 09:14 pm

    The reason that I think these implants are dumb ideas, is because the person making the idea lacks self-awareness and understanding of the human conditions.
    Our problems aren't information, knowledge, they are behavioural, and people promote things for self serving interests, INCLUDING ideas such as implants and dictatorships of the benevolent. Everyone who imagines a utopia, imagines one as per THEIR model. So it is automatically oppressive, because it is person X who is imposing THEIR vision on us all. I for example, want to live in a world where different peoples still exist, where nations DO favour their own over others and resist homogenisation. I'm for the powerfull bucking social and moral trends (as long as they don't complete power), for struggle, conflict, antagonism. Maybe, just maybe some people with 'deplorable' views are actually holding views that make our world better, but we are too prejudiced to see it. The existence of that antagonism is good, as long as there is balance.

    Development of a human being needs discipline, limits and self-awareness. Our world would be a better place when people learn to control themselves, manage themselves, overcome themselves. A soft life doesn't do that.

    Sam Harris posits that suffering is the only thing we can say is objectively bad. A world with LESS suffering is objectively better than
    a world with MORE suffering. Although basic, I think he's right.

    Perhaps, though I worry that a world with no suffering won't last. I'm not saying that people should be made to suffer, but adversity, hardship, struggle does make people better. Wealth and prosperity seems to ruin people. People have banded together in times of trouble, and shared struggle does seem to be able to bring out good in people.

    Should we make a live worth living? Absolutely, but we shouldn't think that it can be done just be removing negative stimuli. We need meaning, purpose, to be able to interact and know the REAL work. We want lives with meaning, purpose, severity and gravitas. A live eating and sitting comfortably with all the entertainment you want is not fulfilling. We want, and need, to exercise the full range of human ability, to be a power and a part of something, where our lifes energy shapes something lasting and important.

    I would much rather a world where I can work with meaning, where I can live honest and true to myself, and be able to express myself freely and debate. Even if that involves competition, struggling and coming against others, there is a purpose. A world which is controlled for comfort cannot allow that. No longer will humans be able to shape the world, impress themselves on it and affect it, shape it, debate and express themselves. They will have to fit a mould, be moulded, and never brush up and push against the narrow path. Despite the physical comfort, the lack of "racism", this I think would make people depressed, a life, while comfortable, has no point at all. Lifes energy going nowhere.


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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Moondog on Wed Aug 19 22:21:00 2020
    Moondog wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Underminer on Tue Aug 18 2020 09:05 pm


    No, we are not essentially computers. You won't find in our brand and gates or gates, flip-flops, microcode. Our memory works completely different, as does our processing. We don't work in binary, or definite, strict logic. O brain uses a vastly different model, so any comparison which goes into more depth than "electrical signals" is useless. Computers don't understand context, aren't conscious, and cannot think. They don't fall for visual or auditory illusions.

    I think when we map how the brain works, we will see that it works using an alien computation model to what our machines do.


    We are machines. Organic electro chemical machines that are way more complex than any concepts we currently use to crunch numbers. Some functions of our bodies have analogs in non-organic mechanics and electronics, howver they are smaller components of more complex
    systems. Memory systems alone blows scientists minds because they are aware of generic nodes, however the data is stored and multiplexed in
    ways that currently don't make sense.

    A flagellum is microscopic machine in the cell. Even the RNA transcription process is done by machines in our cells. Our mind interelates different parts. For example, when we see an object, our mental image isn't just the image, but there is contexual information overlayed onto it. We don't just see a glass of water, we also see it in a particular context, even if we are not consciously aware of it.

    A good example of how different we work, is how we can easily not be fooled by someone wearing a T-Shirt with a stop sign, but self-driving cars are. It isn't just processing of the image, it is connecting it with everything else we know, and our bias towards analysing things as objects.

    We may one day make a mind like ours, but I think we are far further from it than we think. The most interesting part of AI is machine learning through evolutionary techniques.

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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Moondog on Wed Aug 19 22:23:00 2020
    Moondog wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Moondog on Tue Aug 18 2020 09:14 pm


    Development of a human being needs discipline, limits and self-awareness. O world would be a better place when people learn to control themselves, manag themselves, overcome themselves. A soft life doesn't do that.


    The first step in moving forward is discovering what holds you back. Tradition and heritage may be better suited for history books, since everyone's identity is how they personally translate what was said and done in the past. If we adhered to all tradition and the old ways,
    we'd still be hunter gatherers relying on caves.

    I agree self responsibility and discipline are important tools for improving people's status in lives. Only so much can be blamed on
    others and some obstacles are only hard to overcome because of lack of self confidence or self esteem.

    Tradition does need to be question, but not discarded. Tradition and heritage has two functions we don't appreciate. Firstly, tradition within it, has centuries and generations worth of knowledge, gained by trial and error, often painfully. WE may not be able to explain why certain traditions or cultural mores are the way they are, but they nevertheless behind them, may contain much hard learned wisdon. Heritage also gives us grounding, and anchors us to a particular part of the patchwork of humanity, the part where we may best fit.

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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Underminer on Wed Aug 19 22:26:00 2020
    Underminer wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Underminer on Tue Aug 18 2020 09:05 pm

    No, we are not essentially computers. You won't find in our brand and gates, or gates, flip-flops, microcode. Our memory works completely

    You're worrying about levels of sophistication and architecture. My
    point is that we do operate on a pretty binary level. You even expect
    it from other people in your interactions in being able to predict reactions. If you get a different response you chalk that up to the environmental circumstances or differing past experience. The
    underlying point is the same: it's a series of chemical and electrical interactions. We can expect that with a given set of inputs, we'll get
    a given set of outputs every time. The fact we can't predict exactly
    which inputs map to which outputs is just a matter of complexity.
    That's why there's thought even as far as that the experience consciousness may be more of an emergent phenomenom. ---
    Underminer

    There is some conjecture that perhaps there are some quantum effects within the neurons, which may result in the same inputs not resulting in the same outputs.
    I think this is a possibility, as it may be an evolutionary advantage for a mind to be able to run through a particular 'circuit', but come up with new paths faster. It's only a guess at this point, but I did once think that this might explain why our brains are conscious.

    I do agree that people are pretty predictable, at a broad level. In fact, the older I get, the more predictable people get, almost to the point I wonder whether people have minds of their own, or really are following scripts.

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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Vk3jed on Wed Aug 19 22:33:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Andeddu <=-

    On 08-18-20 19:33, Andeddu wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    I've never heard of neurodiversity. I am not saying it's not a thing
    but I have never come across any studies indicating that people of differnent races think differently. I understand cultural difference, however I think you're suggesting the races think differently even
    within the same ideological structures.

    Nothing to do with racial differences, these are human differences that are spread throughout different populations. It refers to autism,
    ADHD, dyslexia, and a number of other neurological differences. These people often have out of the box ways of solving problems, that 90% or more of the population would never have thought, and most of the
    remaining 10% probably wouldn't have ither.

    On a side note, I find it very amusing that companies always talk of the value of diversity, because of different views, etc,blah, blah, but they simultanesouly want people who fit the company "culture".



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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Gamgee on Wed Aug 19 15:03:33 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Gamgee to Andeddu on Tue Aug 18 2020 07:56 pm

    You have an extraordinary talent in saying completely opposing
    things, all in one paragraph, and thinking that it makes sense to
    anyone other than yourself. Extraordinary!

    I am not making any definitive statements or taking sides, merely exploring philsophical/ideological abstractions.

    ---
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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Gamgee on Wed Aug 19 15:13:37 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Gamgee to Andeddu on Tue Aug 18 2020 07:58 pm

    Well, thankfully, you have neither the authority, nor the ability
    to do such a thing. Oh, and not enough ammo, either.

    It's quite funny that you're getting so worked up over words/ideas. As part of any debate, people are required to take sides and behave in a contrarian manner... by doing this, we can analyse the strengths and weaknesses of a particular idea.

    So calm down, I am not in tow with Musk or anyone of his ilk... I won't be arranging to have chips implanted into your brain or anyone elses so you can become part of some kind of humanist collective.

    Remove the tinfoil hat and chill out, dude.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Vk3jed on Wed Aug 19 15:29:22 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Vk3jed to Andeddu on Wed Aug 19 2020 01:35 pm

    Nothing to do with racial differences, these are human differences that are spread throughout different populations. It refers to autism, ADHD, dyslexia, and a number of other neurological differences. These people often have out of the box ways of solving problems, that 90% or more of the population would never have thought, and most of the remaining 10% probably wouldn't have
    ither.

    I believe that a huge number of our finest mathematicians and physicists are themselves on the autism spectrum. I watched quite an interesting documentary a while ago about a group of British students competing in the Maths Olympiad. Around half appeared to be autistic. They struggled to express themselves and converse with other less talented "normal" students, however possessed incredible problem solving ability. So yeah, I agree... neurological diversity is important as it only takes one genius (who is able to think outside of the box) to push forward human understanding by 50 or so years.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Andeddu on Wed Aug 19 09:28:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to HusTler on Tue Aug 18 2020 08:19 pm

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: HusTler to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 2020 06:43 pm

    "Social engineered society"? That means controlling who we have sex with No thanks. I enjoy screwing whoever I want, whenever I want. I perfer not having my sex managed thank you very much. Engineered genes? Like dog breeding right?

    Well you wanted a solution to racism, poverty, etc... have you got better id

    In this world you can have sex with a single partner on Tuesday and Orgy-Por (group sex) every second Thursday. Not so bad now is it?

    And just like in Logan's Run, they kill you when you reach the age of 30 to sa ve resources.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Andeddu on Wed Aug 19 09:56:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Ogg on Tue Aug 18 2020 08:25 pm

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Ogg to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 2020 08:40 pm

    I am not sure whether you are saying that you agree with CS Lewis or not, but he also said, "free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. world of automata -of creatures that worked like machines- would hardly b worth creating."

    I can see the validity of both sides of the argument. There's so much barbar and cruelty in the world that I would be tempted to remove man's free will, only to end the suffering.


    Earlier this year I heard the quote: "Ships are safe when anchored
    in protected harbors. But that's what ships are for." By the same theme I view humans as builders and problem solvers. There is an innate curiosity where humans will take risks to seek answers. In order gorw and move on as a civilization, there needs to be some form of suffering or discomfort: a reason
    to discover and implement changes. Places where this is absent are where people toil in poverty and discomfort. As problem solvers, we need to find wa ys to improve conditions in these areas to encourage growth rather than pump
    in money and resources to pacify these people.

    Imagine a family owned business, where the parents created the business as a means to rise above the lack of opportunity elsewhere. they do well, and
    have a child and spoil it versus teaching them responsibility and respect for others. Should they expect the child to see the opportunity given to them to be prosperous, or would the child show no interest? A society where poeple
    are neither suffering nor engaged in improving their status sounds horrible.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Andeddu on Wed Aug 19 10:12:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Moondog on Tue Aug 18 2020 08:38 pm

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Moondog to Andeddu on Mon Aug 17 2020 09:34 pm

    Yes... in a resourced based and social engineered society, poverty, racism a all the other ills of the world can be eliminated. No other civilisation in history of man has achieved peace and ended suffering with technology the is the prospect of making this happen.

    That says it will be done, not how it can be done.

    Through an idological consensus, the less reputable ideas many individuals harbour could be eliminated.

    Diversity in ideas invariably ends in conflict. The idea of "the individual" would have to end, and replaced with ideas of "the collective".

    However it's that diversity that promotes change and growth. When working in IT in the nuclear power industry, I heard of a concept called "groupthink." It's actually a bad thing, because everyone thinks alike, and will blindly accept an "experts" opinion as gospel without considering an alternative outcome. A good example of this in the scene in Apollo 13 where some figures the only way to get the astronauts home is if they can keep their power consumption below a seemingly impossible threshold. the chief engineer says that's impossible, and his folks accept it. It takes someone outside his authority to apply a questioning attitude to prove they were wrong.

    Back in the 90's I took a quality workgroup training course that implemented bringing in an outside person into a discussion to question the group why
    they can't see the forest from within the trees. In the forum, all were considered equals in opinion. Of course, the outside guy was always a manger of higher rank, and acted as an authoritarian rather than a moderator. Groupthink killed quality improvement.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Andeddu on Wed Aug 19 10:21:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Moondog on Tue Aug 18 2020 08:49 pm

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Moondog to HusTler on Tue Aug 18 2020 12:02 am

    Yep, some engineer wants to breed us all into being mindless, passive she and beleives they are so much better than the rest of use they will prote us by breeding out "disagreeable" features rather than engineer a society where the benefits of society reinforce taking responsibility for ourselv

    I'm amazed no one has brought up the scifi film Gattaca yet.

    Gattaca is one of my favourite films, an absolute classic.

    Perhaps there's a way to engineer empathy into people. I think there's a distinct lack of it in this day and age. An empathetic person is a good person... we can agree that we don't need any more evil people.


    I agree empathy is important. It's how people try to help others that often goes wrong. I like the "teach a man to fish" quote is spot on. Keeping a person alive makes them reliant on the system or charity. Teaching them how
    to sustain themselves is even better and builds self esteem.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Underminer on Wed Aug 19 10:28:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Underminer to Vk3jed on Tue Aug 18 2020 04:17 pm

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Vk3jed to Moondog on Tue Aug 18 2020 09:03 pm

    Q was a re-hash of Trelane, the Squire of Gothos, except more
    powerful.

    There have been arguments made that Trelane was a Q. Maybe even the Q we kno

    Trelane took a serious blow when it was determined his mirror was some sort
    of interface or power source. A Q would not require such a device. the Q Continuum is outside our time and space. Why would 2 Q raise a petulant
    child outside the continuum? why would such a child's behavior be allowed if they are so advanced?

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Wed Aug 19 10:44:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: MRO to Moondog on Tue Aug 18 2020 07:11 pm

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Moondog to MRO on Mon Aug 17 2020 11:25 pm

    Home ec and family living were different. Shop class filled up early so had to take home ec in the 8th grade. The bulk of our time was learning how to cook and use the various kitchen appliances otherwise we were learning how to sew and mend clothing. there was some acedemic stuff su as nutrition thrown in, but family living was much more practical for f a high school senior that was not going the college route. I took the college bound block of classes, but heard from friends the teacher cove writing resumes and filling out applications. Sounds like simple stuff, but can be intimidating to someone who has never done it before.


    i guess this just shows how fucked up our educational systems were.
    in my highschool there werent any 'college route' courses.

    This "college block" even began before entering high school. In 8th grade there is an option of general math or algebra. Kids with the aptitude could also option into the high school foreign language classes. This would push these students into higher math, language, and reading/ writing electives by the time they were seniors. In the technology / shop block there would be drafting 1 and 2, and possibly a 3rd year where there might be one or two stud ents who sit off the side of the class and receive advanced projects. Wood shop 1 and 2 work the same way, where the second year involves more comlex projects and tool usage. We could even opt for welding 1 and 2, and travel
    to an adjacent school district that hosts the program for their students and other adjacent systems.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Dennisk on Wed Aug 19 16:54:41 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Wed Aug 19 2020 10:09 pm

    I think Trump partly is against the establishmnent, not because he's not part of it, but because of conflict of interest. He does seem to have a different worldview. As for the media, the media are part of an established ruling "elite" (and I use the term "elite" loosely). It was during the 2016 when the mask came off, that even they admitted that there IS an establishment. And there is, you get into power by meeting a particular image, a particular way of thinking, a particular mode of though and a particular ethical stance. You can see this in many parts of society. "Professional" is another euphemism. And that particular class of people are failing to deliver.

    Conflict is always in our future. "Only the dead are safe; Only the dead have seen the end of war", said George Santayana.

    We are at this stage PRECISELY because the people who want to keep their power (ie, the establishment), utterly failed. The solution is most definately not to keep the status quo, that will only make things work. The riots and division in Europe and problems with migration are due to this idiotic idea of "open borders". Diversity is THE reason we have more and more laws against speech, why there is so much division between us.
    Identity politics and "socialism" is the reason for so much division.

    It will take some turmoil to set things right, but its too late for any other alternative.

    Have you read Douglas Murray's book The Strange Death of Europe? Much of what you're talking about is discussed in this book. The stagnation of Western society coupled with a general disinterest in national pride, old fashioned values, etc...

    When half of the population appear to support open borders, socialism and censorship, and the other half support capitalism, property ownership, second amendment rights and free-speech... things are going to have to come to a head.

    I fear that the chaos we've seen in 2020 is set to continue throughout the decade, as no compromise appears to be in sight.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Dennisk on Wed Aug 19 17:16:57 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Wed Aug 19 2020 10:16 pm

    Perhaps, though I worry that a world with no suffering won't last. I'm not saying that people should be made to suffer, but adversity, hardship, struggle does make people better. Wealth and prosperity seems to ruin people. People have banded together in times of trouble, and shared struggle does seem to be able to bring out good in people.

    Should we make a live worth living? Absolutely, but we shouldn't think that it can be done just be removing negative stimuli. We need meaning, purpose, to be able to interact and know the REAL work. We want lives with meaning, purpose, severity and gravitas. A live eating and sitting comfortably with all the entertainment you want is not fulfilling. We want, and need, to exercise the full range of human ability, to be a power and a part of something, where our lifes energy shapes something lasting and important.

    I would much rather a world where I can work with meaning, where I can live honest and true to myself, and be able to express myself freely and debate. Even if that involves competition, struggling and coming against others, there is a purpose. A world which is controlled for comfort cannot allow that. No longer will humans be able to shape the world, impress themselves on it and affect it, shape it, debate and express themselves. They will have to fit a mould, be moulded, and never brush up and push against the narrow path. Despite the physical comfort, the lack of "racism", this I think would make people depressed, a life, while comfortable, has no point at all. Lifes energy going nowhere.

    I believe we are a long way off a world with no physical/mental adversity. I understand that going though hardship can create character, which in turn can create a better person. There are, however, a huge number of truly awful people who think nothing of causing harm to others. I know this is also a problem with our judicial system, as it doesn't appear to deter deplorable and heinous acts.

    Sam Harris talks of a world where there is no human caused suffering. In order to make such a world possible, one would be incapable of causing unnecessary harm to another person/creatre. Perhaps something like gene manipulation could work in the future... from what I know, empathy (although still does not prevent a person from killing another person) can mitigate the desire in a person to cause harm/suffering to another. A high empathy population would proper, I believe, and would be as close to a humane (and free-willed) utopian society as I can imagine.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Gamgee on Wed Aug 19 10:50:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Gamgee to Andeddu on Tue Aug 18 2020 07:56 pm

    Andeddu wrote to Arelor <=-

    Then your attempt at Historical Materialism is dead on arrival, because nothing like idealised communism has been shown to work beyond extremely scale.

    The idea would be to create a world similar to that in BNW, a scientific/communistic dictatorship. It is, however, just a book
    & I am well aware all Communist regimes begin with good
    intentions prior to ending in bloodshed. The road to hell is
    paved with good intentions.

    You have an extraordinary talent in saying completely opposing
    things, all in one paragraph, and thinking that it makes sense to
    anyone other than yourself. Extraordinary!



    I get the impression where they were comparing idealism versus practice. Communism is in theory on the opposite side of fascism, however in our history the comumunist nations operated as fascist dictatorships.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Gamgee on Wed Aug 19 10:58:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Gamgee to Andeddu on Tue Aug 18 2020 08:02 pm



    Oh yeah? Who decides who gets to decide what ideas are "less
    reputable"?


    Good point. It's like the old saying, "If everyone was jumping off a cliff, w ould you follow?" A consensus might be misleading. They could also be crippled by their ideology, and not be receptive to ideas which are not
    theirs.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Vk3jed on Wed Aug 19 11:01:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Vk3jed to Andeddu on Wed Aug 19 2020 01:35 pm

    Nothing to do with racial differences, these are human differences that are spread throughout different populations. It refers to autism, ADHD, dyslexi and a number of other neurological differences. These people often have out the box ways of solving problems, that 90% or more of the population would never have thought, and most of the remaining 10% probably wouldn't have ither.


    Those would also be the people we'd genetically screen out, abort, euthanize, or genetically "fix" so they won't contaminate a "pure" society.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Dennisk on Wed Aug 19 11:20:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Moondog on Wed Aug 19 2020 10:23 pm



    Tradition does need to be question, but not discarded. Tradition and herita has two functions we don't appreciate. Firstly, tradition within it, has centuries and generations worth of knowledge, gained by trial and error, oft painfully. WE may not be able to explain why certain traditions or cultural mores are the way they are, but they nevertheless behind them, may contain m hard learned wisdon. Heritage also gives us grounding, and anchors us to a particular part of the patchwork of humanity, the part where we may best fit


    While it's important to learn from the past, we don't live in the past. We learn so we don't repeat the same mistakes. As a society grows, tradition
    must be challenged as it is "the way we've always done it." This is tribal thinking. It's like the son of the chief asking why they go on a traditional
    hunt, when it is easier to grow crops and domesticate penned in animals?
    The son's ideas are new and untried, regardless if they make any sense.
    That's not the way they have done things for as long as the chief remembers.

    Heritage does not define who you are. It defines the people before you. It could be argued that everything you are came from them, but that is not true, especially if you have relocated to a different town or even a country. I
    may have Irish and a good deal of Eastern and Central European blood in my family's past, but I am none of them.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Dennisk on Wed Aug 19 11:36:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Vk3jed on Wed Aug 19 2020 10:33 pm



    On a side note, I find it very amusing that companies always talk of the val of diversity, because of different views, etc,blah, blah, but they simultanesouly want people who fit the company "culture".



    Companies also hire lesser skilled recruits because of their diversity rather than experience and knowledge. I'm not sure if this is done because they believe diversity outweighs experience and knowledge, or they are afraid to
    be ridiculed and judged if they didn't choose diversity. On one project I worked on a department supervisor told me they were sent an edict from HR
    that theu must always hire the most diverse candidate, period. However, if they were asked, they were told to deny it.

    I worked on one project where I'm guessing one of my co-workers was hired due to diversity. He was a smart guy originally from Honduras, however he had a weight restriction of 10lbs due to a car accident. We were rolling out
    desktop systems and would have to pick up as much as 50lbs. He would've been better suited working in the call center than assigned to working on a deployemnt team. We had a similar project involving some interns from a
    local tech school, however they were best used when kept in the staging area performing desktop imaging and outprocessing the old equipment.


    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Dennisk on Wed Aug 19 16:46:27 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Vk3jed on Wed Aug 19 2020 10:33 pm

    Vk3jed wrote to Andeddu <=-

    On 08-18-20 19:33, Andeddu wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    I've never heard of neurodiversity. I am not saying it's not a thing but I have never come across any studies indicating that people of differnent races think differently. I understand cultural difference, however I think you're suggesting the races think differently even within the same ideological structures.

    Nothing to do with racial differences, these are human differences that are spread throughout different populations. It refers to autism, ADHD, dyslexia, and a number of other neurological differences. These people often have out of the box ways of solving problems, that 90% or more of the population would never have thought, and most of the remaining 10% probably wouldn't have ither.

    On a side note, I find it very amusing that companies always talk of the val of diversity, because of different views, etc,blah, blah, but they simultanesouly want people who fit the company "culture".



    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!

    It is all marketing.

    Like when they want to hear your ideas and to point out ways of improving. It is false. They don't. Why? Because if you point something that needs fixing, you are pointing a defect that somebody will have to fix. That is bad news. What they want to hear is "Everything is nice and working full capacity!"

    Which is incidentally the reason why really good workers end up eating so much dubg from management. They are the ones trying to kake things run, which means locating and reporting problems, which means telling managers things they don't want to hear, which is impopular. The workers who don't give a damn, those earn the sympathies of managers because they never pop up with bad news.


    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Moondog on Wed Aug 19 21:14:26 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Moondog to Underminer on Wed Aug 19 2020 10:28 am

    sort of interface or power source. A Q would not require such a device. the Q Continuum is outside our time and space. Why would 2 Q raise a petulant child outside the continuum? why would such a child's behavior be

    Amanda Rogers ;)
    ---
    Underminer
    The Undermine BBS - bbs.undermine.ca:423
    Fidonet: 1:342/17
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Undermine - bbs.undermine.ca:423
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Underminer on Thu Aug 20 14:16:00 2020
    On 08-19-20 03:52, Underminer wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    @VIA: VERT/UNDRMINE
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Vk3jed to The Lizard Master on Wed Aug 19 2020 01:38 pm

    Haha in DSP and software defined radio, I and Q have to work together. ;) (wonder if anyone else will get that one ;) ).

    Pretty sure there's a few Hams about ;)

    Often the case around BBSs. ;)


    ... Spam will keep in it's can until the end of time.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Dennisk on Thu Aug 20 14:16:00 2020
    On 08-19-20 22:33, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    On a side note, I find it very amusing that companies always talk of
    the value of diversity, because of different views, etc,blah, blah, but they simultanesouly want people who fit the company "culture".

    Yeah, that's a bit bizarre, though there's signs of change, slowly.


    ... Come on baby light my fire...
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Andeddu on Thu Aug 20 14:23:00 2020
    On 08-19-20 15:29, Andeddu wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    I believe that a huge number of our finest mathematicians and
    physicists are themselves on the autism spectrum. I watched quite an

    Yes, those careers that involve detailed, in depth study are likely to attract autistic people. And some of the historical "suspects" include geniuses like Albert Einstein and Nikola Tesla.

    interesting documentary a while ago about a group of British students competing in the Maths Olympiad. Around half appeared to be autistic.
    They struggled to express themselves and converse with other less
    talented "normal" students, however possessed incredible problem

    Again, hardly surprising. Mathematics is one area that calls out to pattern thinkers on the autism spectrum. I'm one of those myself, though my abilities are better suited to less deep, but complex realtime analysis of complex phenomena. I don't have the depth of study as a mathemitician (I suspect my ADHD side limits that), but I do have the ability to take in and process a lot of statistical information in real time or near real time. This has come handy in activities like radio direction finding ("foxhunting") and general navigation. Also useful for making off the cuff prediction of various trends. My abiities seem to be able to accurately predict COVID-19 spread and human behaviour under different conditions, to bring it to current affairs. :)

    solving ability. So yeah, I agree... neurological diversity is
    important as it only takes one genius (who is able to think outside of
    the box) to push forward human understanding by 50 or so years.

    That was my point precisely. :)


    ... Old hitchhikers never die-they just throw in the towel.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Moondog on Thu Aug 20 14:24:00 2020
    On 08-19-20 11:01, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Those would also be the people we'd genetically screen out, abort, euthanize, or genetically "fix" so they won't contaminate a "pure" society.

    Ironically, many of those people would be the ones to make the technology possible in the first place!


    ... Homosexuality must be hereditory -- most gays have heterosexual parents. --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From HusTler@VERT/HAVENS to Andeddu on Thu Aug 20 08:03:04 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Dennisk on Wed Aug 19 2020 04:54 pm

    I fear that the chaos we've seen in 2020 is set to continue throughout the decade, as no compromise appears to be in sight.

    What "Chaos" are you referring to? Portland? Seattle? These are cities with extremely weak governments. Both cities will eventually be brought to it's knees and will be begging for help. Whatever "chaos" you're referring to I can assure you is only temporary. ... Democracy is the art of running the circus from the monkey cage.

    HusTler
    havens.synchro.net:23

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Havens BBS havens.synchro.net
  • From HusTler@VERT/HAVENS to Moondog on Thu Aug 20 08:14:37 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Moondog to Dennisk on Wed Aug 19 2020 11:36 am

    On a side note, I find it very amusing that companies always talk of
    the val of diversity, because of different views, etc,blah, blah, but
    they simultanesouly want people who fit the company "culture".



    Companies also hire lesser skilled recruits because of their diversity rather than experience and knowledge. I'm not sure if this is done because

    These people are hired because they work for less money. That is it and that is all. Diversity is just an after fart. Errr I mean after thought.


    ... Everybody has a right to pronounce foreign names as he chooses.

    HusTler
    havens.synchro.net:23

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Havens BBS havens.synchro.net
  • From HusTler@VERT/HAVENS to Andeddu on Thu Aug 20 08:20:28 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Dennisk on Wed Aug 19 2020 04:54 pm

    I fear that the chaos we've seen in 2020 is set to continue throughout the decade, as no compromise appears to be in sight.

    What "Chaos" are you referring to? Portland? Seattle? These are cities with extremely weak governments. Both cities will eventually be brought to it's knees and will be begging for help. Whatever "chaos" you're referring to I can assure you is only temporary.

    ... Democracy is the art of running the circus from the monkey cage.

    HusTler

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Havens BBS havens.synchro.net
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Andeddu on Thu Aug 20 22:03:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Wed Aug 19 2020 10:09 pm

    I think Trump partly is against the establishmnent, not because he's not part of it, but because of conflict of interest. He does seem to have a different worldview. As for the media, the media are part of an established ruling "elite" (and I use the term "elite" loosely). It was during the 2016 when the mask came off, that even they admitted that there IS an establishment. And there is, you get into power by meeting a particular image, a particular way of thinking, a particular mode of though and a particular ethical stance. You can see this in many parts of society. "Professional" is another euphemism. And that particular class of people are failing to deliver.

    Conflict is always in our future. "Only the dead are safe; Only the dead have seen the end of war", said George Santayana.

    We are at this stage PRECISELY because the people who want to keep their power (ie, the establishment), utterly failed. The solution is most definately not to keep the status quo, that will only make things work. The riots and division in Europe and problems with migration are due to this idiotic idea of "open borders". Diversity is THE reason we have more and more laws against speech, why there is so much division between us.
    Identity politics and "socialism" is the reason for so much division.

    It will take some turmoil to set things right, but its too late for any other alternative.

    Have you read Douglas Murray's book The Strange Death of Europe? Much
    of what you're talking about is discussed in this book. The stagnation
    of Western society coupled with a general disinterest in national
    pride, old fashioned values, etc...

    When half of the population appear to support open borders, socialism
    and censorship, and the other half support capitalism, property
    ownership, second amendment rights and free-speech... things are going
    to have to come to a head.

    I fear that the chaos we've seen in 2020 is set to continue throughout
    the decade, as no compromise appears to be in sight.

    I did buy and read Strange Death of Europe. A lot of it were things I had ruminated on, or guessed to some degree, but Douglas Murray wrote with great clarity. I'm pretty convinced we are in a general civilisational decline, don't let the iPhone's fool you.

    People have become so cocooned, coddled, they have lost connection with reality, and are functioning in a make-believe world.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Andeddu on Thu Aug 20 22:07:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Wed Aug 19 2020 10:16 pm

    Perhaps, though I worry that a world with no suffering won't last. I'm not saying that people should be made to suffer, but adversity, hardship, struggle does make people better. Wealth and prosperity seems to ruin people. People have banded together in times of trouble, and shared struggle does seem to be able to bring out good in people.

    Should we make a live worth living? Absolutely, but we shouldn't think that it can be done just be removing negative stimuli. We need meaning, purpose, to be able to interact and know the REAL work. We want lives with meaning, purpose, severity and gravitas. A live eating and sitting comfortably with all the entertainment you want is not fulfilling. We want, and need, to exercise the full range of human ability, to be a power and a part of something, where our lifes energy shapes something lasting and important.

    I would much rather a world where I can work with meaning, where I can live honest and true to myself, and be able to express myself freely and debate. Even if that involves competition, struggling and coming against others, there is a purpose. A world which is controlled for comfort cannot allow that. No longer will humans be able to shape the world, impress themselves on it and affect it, shape it, debate and express themselves. They will have to fit a mould, be moulded, and never brush up and push against the narrow path. Despite the physical comfort, the lack of "racism", this I think would make people depressed, a life, while comfortable, has no point at all. Lifes energy going nowhere.

    I believe we are a long way off a world with no physical/mental
    adversity. I understand that going though hardship can create
    character, which in turn can create a better person. There are,
    however, a huge number of truly awful people who think nothing of
    causing harm to others. I know this is also a problem with our judicial system, as it doesn't appear to deter deplorable and heinous acts.

    Sam Harris talks of a world where there is no human caused suffering.
    In order to make such a world possible, one would be incapable of
    causing unnecessary harm to another person/creatre. Perhaps something
    like gene manipulation could work in the future... from what I know, empathy (although still does not prevent a person from killing another person) can mitigate the desire in a person to cause harm/suffering to another. A high empathy population would proper, I believe, and would
    be as close to a humane (and free-willed) utopian society as I can imagine.

    Yes, there are a lot of harmful people, who want to control us, dominate us, screw us over. That is why I object to social engineering, to having someone with authority dicate what we can do, how we should think, engineer us, because far, far, far more likely than not, the person who will get to decide how we should go "forward" will be one of these self-serving assholes. And they may not come accross that way. They may come accross as professional, smiley, seemingly rational and selfless.

    You are talking of engineering people. I'm saying that if we think we should be engineered, the worst of society will do the engineering. The people who want to do "good" are often the worst. Some of the nastiest people I've met, are people who claim to fight for minorities and the underclass, etc. Anti-racism is hateful. Inclusion is just discimination by another name.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Moondog on Thu Aug 20 22:13:00 2020
    Moondog wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Moondog on Wed Aug 19 2020 10:23 pm



    Tradition does need to be question, but not discarded. Tradition and herita has two functions we don't appreciate. Firstly, tradition within it, has centuries and generations worth of knowledge, gained by trial and error, oft painfully. WE may not be able to explain why certain traditions or cultural mores are the way they are, but they nevertheless behind them, may contain m hard learned wisdon. Heritage also gives us grounding, and anchors us to a particular part of the patchwork of humanity, the part where we may best fit


    While it's important to learn from the past, we don't live in the past.
    We learn so we don't repeat the same mistakes. As a society grows, tradition must be challenged as it is "the way we've always done it."
    This is tribal thinking. It's like the son of the chief asking why
    they go on a traditional
    hunt, when it is easier to grow crops and domesticate penned in
    animals? The son's ideas are new and untried, regardless if they make
    any sense. That's not the way they have done things for as long as the chief remembers.

    Heritage does not define who you are. It defines the people before
    you. It could be argued that everything you are came from them, but
    that is not true, especially if you have relocated to a different town
    or even a country. I may have Irish and a good deal of Eastern and Central European blood in my family's past, but I am none of them.

    But you are European, Western. You no doubt would identify with the general branch of civilisation which is behind you. As for tradition, traditional socities do adapt. I think there is a misunderstanding of what Tradition is. It isn't being static, not learning, not adapting. It is a different metaphysics. Traditionalists (and I lean that way), believe that we aren't necessarily rootless individuals, but have ties to the past, and the future, and a concomitant duty. Also, it is more a view that humanity doesn't move by some metaphysical force "forward", which is the progressive view. Progressivism views progress as some direction with and goal, and end goal, whereas Traditionalists don't believe that there is this underlying push towards some system, but rather, we learn, adapt. It is about viewing our place in this earth as respect our place, instead of being to move towards a goal (such as more and more liberalism).

    So of course, the hunting methods of the tribe would change. If something works better, it works better. But what I reject, is this idea that there is some external "value" towards a pre-ordained social outcome. We don't actually know where we should head as a society, we don't know what we may need to do next.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Moondog on Thu Aug 20 22:16:00 2020
    Moondog wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Vk3jed on Wed Aug 19 2020 10:33 pm



    On a side note, I find it very amusing that companies always talk of the val of diversity, because of different views, etc,blah, blah, but they simultanesouly want people who fit the company "culture".



    Companies also hire lesser skilled recruits because of their diversity rather than experience and knowledge. I'm not sure if this is done because they believe diversity outweighs experience and knowledge, or
    they are afraid to be ridiculed and judged if they didn't choose diversity. On one project I worked on a department supervisor told me they were sent an edict from HR that theu must always hire the most diverse candidate, period. However, if they were asked, they were told
    to deny it.

    This happens more than you think, the outright discrimination. What is odd is how HR openly states to managers to hire this way. I think the reasons are mostly shallow. Executives and managers want to be seen to be doing the right thing, to be on track with the "current thinking" and do what it takes to have a good brand name. Arguments that it improves the bottom line, I don't know if they believe it or not. There is a lot, a LOT of "motivated reasoning" when it comes to matters like this. You want to believe what is good for your career. People that can actually think for themselves, wont' do well in such positions, just like people in a church who can question and think independently may run afoul of the church if the thought process lead them astray.


    I worked on one project where I'm guessing one of my co-workers was
    hired due to diversity. He was a smart guy originally from Honduras, however he had a weight restriction of 10lbs due to a car accident. We were rolling out desktop systems and would have to pick up as much as 50lbs. He would've been better suited working in the call center than assigned to working on a deployemnt team. We had a similar project involving some interns from a local tech school, however they were best used when kept in the staging area performing desktop imaging and outprocessing the old equipment.

    I have similar stories, but we don't live in a free society, so I'll leave it at that.

    ... 2 + 2 = 5 for extremely large values of 2.
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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Arelor on Thu Aug 20 22:19:00 2020
    Arelor wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Vk3jed on Wed Aug 19 2020 10:33 pm

    Vk3jed wrote to Andeddu <=-

    On 08-18-20 19:33, Andeddu wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    I've never heard of neurodiversity. I am not saying it's not a thing but I have never come across any studies indicating that people of differnent races think differently. I understand cultural difference, however I think you're suggesting the races think differently even within the same ideological structures.

    Nothing to do with racial differences, these are human differences that are spread throughout different populations. It refers to autism, ADHD, dyslexia, and a number of other neurological differences. These people often have out of the box ways of solving problems, that 90% or more of the population would never have thought, and most of the remaining 10% probably wouldn't have ither.

    On a side note, I find it very amusing that companies always talk of the val of diversity, because of different views, etc,blah, blah, but they simultanesouly want people who fit the company "culture".



    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!

    It is all marketing.

    Like when they want to hear your ideas and to point out ways of
    improving. It is false. They don't. Why? Because if you point something that needs fixing, you are pointing a defect that somebody will have to fix. That is bad news. What they want to hear is "Everything is nice
    and working full capacity!"

    Which is incidentally the reason why really good workers end up eating
    so much dubg from management. They are the ones trying to kake things
    run, which means locating and reporting problems, which means telling managers things they don't want to hear, which is impopular. The
    workers who don't give a damn, those earn the sympathies of managers because they never pop up with bad news.


    It could be worse. Pointing out something that needs fixing could be seen as being "negative", and may portray anyone who has responsibility in a bad light.
    Wait until you are in a job where simply warning or a potential major problem is not in line with the companies values, and then the very thing you warned against happens, at a cost of tens of thousands of dollars.

    I just want out of the corporate world. It is a complete mind-$#%5. How people stay sane in such environments is beyond me.

    ... 2 + 2 = 5 for extremely large values of 2.
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    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Andeddu on Thu Aug 20 09:17:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Dennisk on Wed Aug 19 2020 05:16 pm


    I believe we are a long way off a world with no physical/mental adversity. I understand that going though hardship can create character, which in turn ca create a better person. There are, however, a huge number of truly awful peo who think nothing of causing harm to others. I know this is also a problem w our judicial system, as it doesn't appear to deter deplorable and heinous ac

    Sam Harris talks of a world where there is no human caused suffering. In ord to make such a world possible, one would be incapable of causing unnecessary harm to another person/creatre. Perhaps something like gene manipulation cou work in the future... from what I know, empathy (although still does not prevent a person from killing another person) can mitigate the desire in a person to cause harm/suffering to another. A high empathy population would proper, I believe, and would be as close to a humane (and free-willed) utopi society as I can imagine.

    I'd hate to see the human race being bred into being a bunch of sheep. We
    are not farm animals to be genetically altered to go to slaughter. We are intelligent, self aware beings who are capable of more than acting on
    instincts and primal urges. It will take awhile for everyone to come
    onboard, however I believe a philosphy based on people treating others the
    wish they be treated can be adopted. The biggest part of this is finding the common thread behind all nations and creeds and establish common ground.
    Henry Rollins, a musician also know n for spoken word performances spoke of
    an idea he had about dropping all the even numbered Ramones albums on one
    side of the Israeli border and all the odd number albums in Palestinian controlled territory. The day will come where the troops will be massing and getting ready to fight, then someone on the opposite side will hear some
    music that sounds familiar, but the song is unknown. Eventually the gates ope n and peace treaties will be authored as a means to exchange the albums the other side has not heard.

    This is a bit ridiculous, however there has to be a way to establish peace
    and common ground without breeding people into being sheep.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Vk3jed on Thu Aug 20 09:27:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Vk3jed to Moondog on Thu Aug 20 2020 02:24 pm

    On 08-19-20 11:01, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Those would also be the people we'd genetically screen out, abort, euthanize, or genetically "fix" so they won't contaminate a "pure" society.

    Ironically, many of those people would be the ones to make the technology possible in the first place!



    Very true. The abnormally gifted people will be the ones who can recognize
    and categorize the genes that stand out.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Andeddu on Thu Aug 20 09:57:07 2020
    On 8/18/2020 11:49 AM, Andeddu wrote:

    China is a manufacturing/technological superpower. Once international trade dies off, Chinese firms will have to pay their worker's a fair wage so that they can purchase the goods they produce. They'll be landed with the same economical enviroment the USA had back in the 1950s-1980s when they too were a
    manufacturing superpower.

    I am not an advocate of Communism though.

    I think they'll just turn their mfg to internal fulfillment and needs.

    --
    Michael J. Ryan
    tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Roughneck BBS - coming back 2/2/20
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Gamgee on Thu Aug 20 14:50:46 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Gamgee to Andeddu on Tue Aug 18 2020 07:56 pm

    The idea would be to create a world similar to that in BNW, a
    scientific/communistic dictatorship. It is, however, just a book
    & I am well aware all Communist regimes begin with good
    intentions prior to ending in bloodshed. The road to hell is
    paved with good intentions.

    You have an extraordinary talent in saying completely opposing
    things, all in one paragraph, and thinking that it makes sense to
    anyone other than yourself. Extraordinary!

    I've wondered about that a couple times when he has said one thing and then seemed to contradict it in another message..

    Nightfox

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to HusTler on Fri Aug 21 08:44:00 2020
    HusTler wrote to Moondog <=-

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Moondog to Dennisk on Wed Aug 19 2020 11:36 am

    On a side note, I find it very amusing that companies always talk of
    the val of diversity, because of different views, etc,blah, blah, but
    they simultanesouly want people who fit the company "culture".



    Companies also hire lesser skilled recruits because of their diversity rather than experience and knowledge. I'm not sure if this is done because

    These people are hired because they work for less money. That is it
    and that is all. Diversity is just an after fart. Errr I mean after thought.

    This isn't always true. Companies will also hire for 'inclusivity' at a cost.

    ... Direct from the Ministry of Silly Walks
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Moondog on Fri Aug 21 08:50:00 2020
    Moondog wrote to Andeddu <=-

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Dennisk on Wed Aug 19 2020 05:16 pm


    I believe we are a long way off a world with no physical/mental adversity. I understand that going though hardship can create character, which in turn ca create a better person. There are, however, a huge number of truly awful peo who think nothing of causing harm to others. I know this is also a problem w our judicial system, as it doesn't appear to deter deplorable and heinous ac

    Sam Harris talks of a world where there is no human caused suffering. In ord to make such a world possible, one would be incapable of causing unnecessary harm to another person/creatre. Perhaps something like gene manipulation cou work in the future... from what I know, empathy (although still does not prevent a person from killing another person) can mitigate the desire in a person to cause harm/suffering to another. A high empathy population would proper, I believe, and would be as close to a humane (and free-willed) utopi society as I can imagine.

    I'd hate to see the human race being bred into being a bunch of sheep.
    We are not farm animals to be genetically altered to go to slaughter.
    We are intelligent, self aware beings who are capable of more than
    acting on instincts and primal urges. It will take awhile for everyone
    to come onboard, however I believe a philosphy based on people treating others the wish they be treated can be adopted.

    Isn't that basically what Jesus was teaching?

    Mo >The biggest part of
    this is finding the common thread behind all nations and creeds and establish common ground. Henry Rollins, a musician also know n for
    spoken word performances spoke of an idea he had about dropping all the even numbered Ramones albums on one side of the Israeli border and all
    the odd number albums in Palestinian controlled territory. The day
    will come where the troops will be massing and getting ready to fight, then someone on the opposite side will hear some music that sounds familiar, but the song is unknown. Eventually the gates ope n and
    peace treaties will be authored as a means to exchange the albums the other side has not heard.

    This is a bit ridiculous, however there has to be a way to establish
    peace and common ground without breeding people into being sheep.

    IF you breed people into sheep, they will be MORE likely to commit mass violence. Nazi Germany wasn't exactly populated by people who were free to express their own moral and political ideas, and challenge the mandated morality.

    The idea about dropping Ramone's albums sounds cute, but is ridiculous. I think a good start towards a better society is not thinking that celebrities with opinions are a good source of guidance. A society is pretty broken when it thinks that Madonna's opinion of French politics for example, somehow carries any weight.

    ... Got my tie caught in the fax... Suddenly I was in L.A.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Moondog on Thu Aug 20 20:17:00 2020
    Moondog wrote to Andeddu <=-

    Sam Harris talks of a world where there is no human caused suffering. In ord to make such a world possible, one would be incapable of causing unnecessary harm to another person/creatre. Perhaps something like gene manipulation cou work in the future... from what I know, empathy (although still does not prevent a person from killing another person) can mitigate the desire in a person to cause harm/suffering to another. A high empathy population would proper, I believe, and would be as close to a humane (and free-willed) utopi society as I can imagine.

    I'd hate to see the human race being bred into being a bunch of
    sheep.

    So would every other person on the planet, except apparently these "transhumanism" freaks, and Andeddu.


    ... All the easy problems have been solved.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Moondog on Fri Aug 21 02:30:58 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Moondog to Andeddu on Wed Aug 19 2020 09:28 am

    And just like in Logan's Run, they kill you when you reach the age of 30 to sa ve resources.

    Lol, I haven't seen Logan's Run but I have heard about a number of hypothetical social contracts whereby citizens must sacrifice themselves for the good of the state once they reach the ripe old age of around 60ish. Becoming elderly is viewed as something that upends the natural order... how many old wild animals have you seen?

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Moondog on Fri Aug 21 02:42:30 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Moondog to Andeddu on Wed Aug 19 2020 09:56 am

    Earlier this year I heard the quote: "Ships are safe when anchored
    in protected harbors. But that's what ships are for." By the same theme I view humans as builders and problem solvers. There is an innate curiosity where humans will take risks to seek answers. In order gorw and move on as a civilization, there needs to be some form of suffering or discomfort: a reason
    to discover and implement changes. Places where this is absent are where people toil in poverty and discomfort. As problem solvers, we need to find wa ys to improve conditions in these areas to encourage growth rather than pump
    in money and resources to pacify these people.

    That's the problem with social engineering. As an administrator/dictator, your objective would be to retain the status quo by any means. This stifles innovation by the promotion of conformity via strict regulations. A world that's socially engineered is one which is ordered, as opposed to the sort of chaotic world we live in today. There are positives and negatives in both systems. In a chaotic world, there's a good chance we'll wipe ourselves out in a major nuclear conflict. A stable society that takes no risks, in this example, would be preferable.

    ---
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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Moondog on Fri Aug 21 02:54:14 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Moondog to Andeddu on Wed Aug 19 2020 10:12 am

    However it's that diversity that promotes change and growth. When working in IT in the nuclear power industry, I heard of a concept called "groupthink." It's actually a bad thing, because everyone thinks alike, and will blindly accept an "experts" opinion as gospel without considering an alternative outcome. A good example of this in the scene in Apollo 13 where some figures the only way to get the astronauts home is if they can keep their power consumption below a seemingly impossible threshold. the chief engineer says that's impossible, and his folks accept it. It takes someone outside his authority to apply a questioning attitude to prove they were wrong.

    Back in the 90's I took a quality workgroup training course that implemented bringing in an outside person into a discussion to question the group why they can't see the forest from within the trees. In the forum, all were considered equals in opinion. Of course, the outside guy was always a manger of higher rank, and acted as an authoritarian rather than a moderator. Groupthink killed quality improvement.

    I agree that groupthink is bad and that there has to be an open discourse where ideas can be assessed. The problem with too many ideas is that they can move a civilisaiton/society down the path of destruction. If a successful society accepts that it's imperfect, and implements 10,50,100 or 1000 new acts of legislation or regulation, each act being sensible and progressive, you may end up with a worse society than you started with.

    A socially engineered society is one which will do anything to preserve the rules presently in place, because too many changes could topple the regime or completely alter the course of the civilisation.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to HusTler on Fri Aug 21 03:16:39 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: HusTler to Andeddu on Thu Aug 20 2020 08:03 am

    What "Chaos" are you referring to? Portland? Seattle? These are cities with extremely weak governments. Both cities will eventually be brought to it's knees and will be begging for help. Whatever "chaos" you're referring to I can assure you is only temporary. ... Democracy is the art of running the circus from the monkey cage.

    HusTler

    We'll see how things pan out... NYC seems to be quite worrying too. If the NYPD lose a billion dollars of their budget, crime will rise back to the levels we saw in the 1980s. These sort of kneejerk decisions are going to have long-term political and economic repercussions. It'll be interesting if these cities end up begging for Federal assistance... however some politicians would rather cut off their nose to spite their face.

    ---
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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Dennisk on Fri Aug 21 03:29:04 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Thu Aug 20 2020 10:03 pm

    I did buy and read Strange Death of Europe. A lot of it were things I had ruminated on, or guessed to some degree, but Douglas Murray wrote with great clarity. I'm pretty convinced we are in a general civilisational decline, don't let the iPhone's fool you.

    People have become so cocooned, coddled, they have lost connection with reality, and are functioning in a make-believe world.

    Yes, I agree that through our very poor educational system, people are going to forget, discard or even repudiate the high culture we once had (The Renaissance, The Age of Enlightenment, etc)... and in doing so, our civilisation will end not with a bang, but with a wimper.

    I mean just compare Rembrant's masterpieces to present day art, for example!

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Dennisk on Fri Aug 21 03:42:04 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Thu Aug 20 2020 10:07 pm

    Yes, there are a lot of harmful people, who want to control us, dominate us, screw us over. That is why I object to social engineering, to having someone with authority dicate what we can do, how we should think, engineer us, because far, far, far more likely than not, the person who will get to decide how we should go "forward" will be one of these self-serving assholes. And they may not come accross that way. They may come accross as professional, smiley, seemingly rational and selfless.

    You are talking of engineering people. I'm saying that if we think we should be engineered, the worst of society will do the engineering. The people who want to do "good" are often the worst. Some of the nastiest people I've met, are people who claim to fight for minorities and the underclass, etc. Anti-racism is hateful. Inclusion is just discimination by another name.

    I believe that we can engineer a better breed of human. I am not particularly interested in intelligence or anything in relation to race. I would just like to believe that we could consistently produce kind and caring human beings... altruists who do good for the sake of it, asking for nothing else in return.

    These people are rare, as most people are equally bad as they are good. This is hypothetical, of course, as the person or people likely to promote such an agenda would have to be benevolent & kind themselves... traits that are generally absent in those who wield true power.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Moondog on Fri Aug 21 03:54:33 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Moondog to Andeddu on Thu Aug 20 2020 09:17 am

    This is a bit ridiculous, however there has to be a way to establish peace and common ground without breeding people into being sheep.

    As much as I was nodding to myself while reading your post, I think you're being a little naive. Humans will never stop killing each other. Even if it's over the tiniest difference, we will never EVER stop harming each other in sick and twisted ways. We have never come close to achieving a utopia, never come close to peace. The world is more fractured today than ever before... relations are going backwards, not forwards!

    I don't have much faith that we'll ever settle our differences. I mean, where would you even begin?

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Moondog on Fri Aug 21 19:34:00 2020
    On 08-20-20 09:27, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Very true. The abnormally gifted people will be the ones who can recognize and categorize the genes that stand out.

    Exactly, and what's been happening in Silicon Valley in recent years is more evidence that suggests neurodvergent people are a significant contributing factor to today's technology. Basically, it is a known fact that there is an unusually high prevalence of autism in Silicon Valley, and that is put down to there being a concentration of autistic traits among the engineers and other tech people who live and work there. And as most people meet their partners through local and work connections, those people are having kids together, concentrating those traits.

    Some food for thought...

    https://www.womenofsiliconvalley.com/blog/neurodiversity-in-silicon-valley

    And here's a different perspective. I met Steve Silberman at an autism conference in Melbourne in 2016, and have a signed copy of his book (mentioned in the second article below). One chapter of the book talks about activities and interests like ham radio and pop culture, as well as te Internet, where autistic people congregated. And I have no doubt BBSs are in that category too! :)

    https://tinyurl.com/y7798kza


    ... Some people grow under responsibility. Others merely swell up.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Andeddu on Fri Aug 21 04:00:09 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Moondog on Fri Aug 21 2020 02:30 am

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Moondog to Andeddu on Wed Aug 19 2020 09:28 am

    And just like in Logan's Run, they kill you when you reach the age of 30 sa ve resources.

    Lol, I haven't seen Logan's Run but I have heard about a number of hypotheti social contracts whereby citizens must sacrifice themselves for the good of state once they reach the ripe old age of around 60ish. Becoming elderly is viewed as something that upends the natural order... how many old wild anima have you seen?


    Elder animals are somehow common in social species. For example, chimps. Primates have an evolutionary pass for old members because old individuals are useful - they can take care of the youngsters while everybody else is busy.

    Guess what, that is what I see a lot of in Spain. Gandpas taking care of the babies when mom and dad are working to put food on the table.

    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From HusTler@VERT/HAVENS to Andeddu on Fri Aug 21 07:15:42 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Moondog on Fri Aug 21 2020 02:42 am

    that's socially engineered is one which is ordered, as opposed to the sort o chaotic world we live in today. There are positives and negatives in both systems. In a chaotic world, there's a good chance we'll wipe ourselves out a major nuclear conflict. A stable society that takes no risks, in this example, would be preferable.

    Preferable to who? You? I would hate living in a world like that and would likely off myself. But hey..that's just me.

    HusTler
    havens.synchro.net:23

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Havens BBS havens.synchro.net
  • From HusTler@VERT/HAVENS to Andeddu on Fri Aug 21 07:25:54 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to HusTler on Fri Aug 21 2020 03:16 am

    What "Chaos" are you referring to? Portland? Seattle? These are cities with extremely weak governments. Both cities will eventually be brought

    We'll see how things pan out... NYC seems to be quite worrying too. If the N lose a billion dollars of their budget, crime will rise back to the levels w saw in the 1980s. These sort of kneejerk decisions are going to have long-te political and economic repercussions. It'll be interesting if these cities e up begging for Federal assistance... however some politicians would rather c off their nose to spite their face.

    I'm a New Yorker. The Mayor Blazio is Delusional and talks tough until the city needs money from the feds. Then he blames the feds (President) for his short comings. The whole thing is a travesty. He protects non-citizens but doesn't have the money to feed them, house them, provide healthcare for them. So he takes a billion dollars away from the cops. He thinks he can get what he wants out of NYC police because he's a tough guy. Well, guess what? The NYC police has endorsed Donald Trump. So yea..let's see how things pan out.

    HusTler
    havens.synchro.net:23

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Havens BBS havens.synchro.net
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Andeddu on Fri Aug 21 08:06:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Moondog <=-

    That's the problem with social engineering. As an
    administrator/dictator, your objective would be to retain the
    status quo by any means. This stifles innovation by the promotion
    of conformity via strict regulations. A world that's socially
    engineered is one which is ordered, as opposed to the sort of
    chaotic world we live in today. There are positives and negatives
    in both systems. In a chaotic world, there's a good chance we'll
    wipe ourselves out in a major nuclear conflict. A stable society
    that takes no risks, in this example, would be preferable.

    No, it wouldn't. Wrong, again.



    ... He does the work of 3 Men...Moe, Larry & Curly
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Andeddu on Fri Aug 21 08:14:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Moondog <=-

    I agree that groupthink is bad and that there has to be an open
    discourse where ideas can be assessed.

    And yet you promote a society where there can *BE* no open
    discourse, because everyone is a drone/sheep that has been
    assimilated into the Borg "for the benefit of all".

    Does that make any sense, even to you?

    The problem with too many ideas is that they can move a civilisaiton/society down the path of destruction.

    Wrong. You can never have "too many ideas".

    If a successful society accepts that it's
    imperfect, and implements 10,50,100 or 1000 new acts of
    legislation or regulation, each act being sensible and
    progressive, you may end up with a worse society than you started
    with.

    I suppose that is possible, but not likely. Did you ever stop to
    wonder how a "successful society" (your words) got to be that way
    in the first place? Maybe they know what they're doing?

    A socially engineered society is one which will do anything to
    preserve the rules presently in place, because too many changes
    could topple the regime or completely alter the course of the civilisation.

    Yeah, let's not have "too many changes" in society. It would be
    so much better to just STAGNATE and have everyone be the same.
    Right? Do you even SEE the idiocy of your statements?

    You claim to not be a "communist", and yet ALWAYS use words like
    "socially engineered society" and "regime", etc...

    STFU and go away.



    ... Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Andeddu on Fri Aug 21 08:53:48 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Moondog on Fri Aug 21 2020 03:54 am

    close to peace. The world is more fractured today than ever before... relati are going backwards, not forwards!

    The world is more peaceful this century than it ever was.

    The Middle Ages consistend in warlords who swore fealty among each other and waged war against other warlords all day long.

    In antique times they had rampant slavery, they killed you for holding the wrong opinion, and big empires took lands, killed all the men and enslaved the women and children.

    We are much better today than we used to be.


    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Hatton@VERT/THRCORN to HusTler on Fri Aug 21 21:09:54 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: HusTler to Andeddu on Fri Aug 21 2020 07:25 am

    I'm a New Yorker. The Mayor Blazio is Delusional and talks tough until the city needs money from the feds. Then he blames the feds (President) for his short comings. The whole thing is a travesty.

    I'm on the other side of the state and have basically stopped watching the news. I don't know how MDB managed to get elected twice.

    Hatton

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Three Corners and Beyond! http://3corners.us
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Arelor on Sat Aug 22 02:02:57 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Arelor to Andeddu on Fri Aug 21 2020 04:00 am

    Elder animals are somehow common in social species. For example, chimps. Primates have an evolutionary pass for old members because old individuals are useful - they can take care of the youngsters while everybody else is busy.

    Guess what, that is what I see a lot of in Spain. Gandpas taking care of the babies when mom and dad are working to put food on the table.

    Yes, any elderly animals I do see tend to be social herd anmimals and primates... I don't believe there are too many elderly predators as once they lose their strength and pace, they go hungry and die.

    It seems like the Spanish spend more time with their elderly relatives than here in the UK. I see it's part of the culture over there to have large family gatherings and dinners whereas over here it happens a lot less frequently.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to HusTler on Sat Aug 22 02:06:53 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: HusTler to Andeddu on Fri Aug 21 2020 07:15 am

    Preferable to who? You? I would hate living in a world like that and would likely off myself. But hey..that's just me.

    Yes, preferable to me. As, in that example, the other option was to live in a nuclear wasteland.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to HusTler on Sat Aug 22 02:14:35 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: HusTler to Andeddu on Fri Aug 21 2020 07:25 am

    I'm a New Yorker. The Mayor Blazio is Delusional and talks tough until the city needs money from the feds. Then he blames the feds (President) for his short comings. The whole thing is a travesty. He protects non-citizens but doesn't have the money to feed them, house them, provide healthcare for them. So he takes a billion dollars away from the cops. He thinks he can get what he wants out of NYC police because he's a tough guy. Well, guess what? The NYC police has endorsed Donald Trump. So yea..let's see how things pan out.

    HusTler

    I did see that the US policing federation formally endorsed Trump, which is quite a statement as they usually remain impartial. New York is such a beautiful city, I really hope a more responsible mayor takes over - someone with a law & order mindset with an interest in looking after tax paying citizens. A mayor has to be pragmatic, there aren't enough resources to please everyone!

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Gamgee on Sat Aug 22 02:17:03 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Gamgee to Andeddu on Fri Aug 21 2020 08:06 am

    That's the problem with social engineering. As an administrator/dictator, your objective would be to retain the
    status quo by any means. This stifles innovation by the promotion
    of conformity via strict regulations. A world that's socially engineered is one which is ordered, as opposed to the sort of
    chaotic world we live in today. There are positives and negatives
    in both systems. In a chaotic world, there's a good chance we'll
    wipe ourselves out in a major nuclear conflict. A stable society
    that takes no risks, in this example, would be preferable.

    No, it wouldn't. Wrong, again.

    Okay... have fun scavenging in a barren nuclear wasteland!

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Gamgee on Sat Aug 22 02:47:30 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Gamgee to Andeddu on Fri Aug 21 2020 08:14 am

    And yet you promote a society where there can *BE* no open
    discourse, because everyone is a drone/sheep that has been
    assimilated into the Borg "for the benefit of all".

    Does that make any sense, even to you?

    I suppose that is possible, but not likely. Did you ever stop to
    wonder how a "successful society" (your words) got to be that way
    in the first place? Maybe they know what they're doing?

    Yeah, let's not have "too many changes" in society. It would be
    so much better to just STAGNATE and have everyone be the same.
    Right? Do you even SEE the idiocy of your statements?

    Right... so let's say we have a society which you find agreeable. As society is malleable, and new laws/restrictions/regulations change the makeup of that society. Would it not be HIGHY likely that you could end up with something that doesn't resemble what you had in the beginning? The answer is yes.

    The Roman Empire was a successful civilisation, however through years and years of cultural errosion, over expansion and financial mismanagement, they became weaker and weaker, until eventually they were no more.

    All civilisations are finite. The successful ones rise before going through development stages as part of a cycle prior to their inevitable decline and fall. A socially engineered society does not have to be one which is stagnant, for example, there could be an emphasis on science and technological development... I was speaking more of the pillars of society remaining unchanged, rather than preserving everything and never progressing one iota as a civilisation.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Arelor on Sat Aug 22 02:55:54 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Arelor to Andeddu on Fri Aug 21 2020 08:53 am

    The world is more peaceful this century than it ever was.
    The Middle Ages consistend in warlords who swore fealty among each other and waged war against other warlords all day long.

    In antique times they had rampant slavery, they killed you for holding the wrong opinion, and big empires took lands, killed all the men and enslaved the women and children.

    We are much better today than we used to be.

    The 20th century is the most murderous in world history. Two world wars, a huge number of violent revolutions and ethnic cleansing resulted in around 190 million deaths. The middle ages were rather tame in comparison.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Dennisk on Fri Aug 21 11:46:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Moondog on Fri Aug 21 2020 08:50 am



    IF you breed people into sheep, they will be MORE likely to commit mass violence. Nazi Germany wasn't exactly populated by people who were free to express their own moral and political ideas, and challenge the mandated morality.

    The idea about dropping Ramone's albums sounds cute, but is ridiculous. I think a good start towards a better society is not thinking that celebrities with opinions are a good source of guidance. A society is pretty broken whe it thinks that Madonna's opinion of French politics for example, somehow carries any weight.


    Rollins is an entertainer, although he attempts political commentary. I
    listen to his spoken word for entertainment only. I found the idea entertaining something simple as finding a comnon ground of music
    appreciation could help find greater common ground. In truth, most enemies
    are so clouded by hate, they would find a way to spin that common ground into more hate.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Andeddu on Fri Aug 21 12:23:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Moondog on Fri Aug 21 2020 02:30 am

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Moondog to Andeddu on Wed Aug 19 2020 09:28 am

    And just like in Logan's Run, they kill you when you reach the age of 30 sa ve resources.

    Lol, I haven't seen Logan's Run but I have heard about a number of hypotheti social contracts whereby citizens must sacrifice themselves for the good of state once they reach the ripe old age of around 60ish. Becoming elderly is viewed as something that upends the natural order... how many old wild anima have you seen?

    There are exceptions to the rule.

    The CEO of Jimmy John's received flak about going on safari trips and paying
    to hunt endangered black rhinos. Even tough endangered, an old bull rhino is considered a threat to the herd because he can no longer reproduce, yet powerful enough to mortally wound younger bulls that approach his cows. The game wardens and local villagers are the ones who make decisions on herd management, and authorize the overly aggressive bulls to be taken.

    In the film and TV series for Logan's Run, the age was 30. My underrstanding from what others said, the age is younger in the original story. Everyone is dietarily "on the pill," so sex with multiple partners is a common activity. Children are genetically designed from harvested DNA and grown in artficial wombs, and the children are raised by the system without parents. In one
    part of the film they implied sometime there are unplanned children, and they are normally taken to an older, less visited are of the domed city. It
    looked like a cathedral long abandoned by the culture, and the residents there live off the grid.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Andeddu on Fri Aug 21 12:36:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Moondog on Fri Aug 21 2020 02:42 am


    That's the problem with social engineering. As an administrator/dictator, yo objective would be to retain the status quo by any means. This stifles innovation by the promotion of conformity via strict regulations. A world that's socially engineered is one which is ordered, as opposed to the sort o chaotic world we live in today. There are positives and negatives in both systems. In a chaotic world, there's a good chance we'll wipe ourselves out a major nuclear conflict. A stable society that takes no risks, in this example, would be preferable.

    Sterile systems can also lead to extinction.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Andeddu on Fri Aug 21 12:38:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Moondog on Fri Aug 21 2020 02:54 am

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Moondog to Andeddu on Wed Aug 19 2020 10:12 am

    However it's that diversity that promotes change and growth. When workin in IT in the nuclear power industry, I heard of a concept called "groupthink." It's actually a bad thing, because everyone thinks alike, will blindly accept an "experts" opinion as gospel without considering an alternative outcome. A good example of this in the scene in Apollo 13 wh some figures the only way to get the astronauts home is if they can keep their power consumption below a seemingly impossible threshold. the chie engineer says that's impossible, and his folks accept it. It takes someo outside his authority to apply a questioning attitude to prove they were wrong.

    Back in the 90's I took a quality workgroup training course that implemen bringing in an outside person into a discussion to question the group why they can't see the forest from within the trees. In the forum, all were considered equals in opinion. Of course, the outside guy was always a manger of higher rank, and acted as an authoritarian rather than a moderator. Groupthink killed quality improvement.

    I agree that groupthink is bad and that there has to be an open discourse wh ideas can be assessed. The problem with too many ideas is that they can move civilisaiton/society down the path of destruction. If a successful society accepts that it's imperfect, and implements 10,50,100 or 1000 new acts of legislation or regulation, each act being sensible and progressive, you may up with a worse society than you started with.

    A socially engineered society is one which will do anything to preserve the rules presently in place, because too many changes could topple the regime o completely alter the course of the civilisation.

    A society that is too slow to react to change can also be a detriment.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Andeddu on Fri Aug 21 12:54:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Moondog on Fri Aug 21 2020 03:54 am

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Moondog to Andeddu on Thu Aug 20 2020 09:17 am

    This is a bit ridiculous, however there has to be a way to establish peac and common ground without breeding people into being sheep.

    As much as I was nodding to myself while reading your post, I think you're being a little naive. Humans will never stop killing each other. Even if it' over the tiniest difference, we will never EVER stop harming each other in s and twisted ways. We have never come close to achieving a utopia, never come close to peace. The world is more fractured today than ever before... relati are going backwards, not forwards!

    I don't have much faith that we'll ever settle our differences. I mean, wher would you even begin?

    Before fixing a problem, the root cause must be established. Why do people turn to crime? Why do gangs exist? Why do people blindly allow bad things
    to happen in their neighborhoods? Why do these same people fear the police showing up? Why do people resort to violence? Questions like these will
    need to be answered first before we can consider making changes.

    I agree we'll never have world peace or eliminate all crime. Crime is not
    just a poverty issue. I knew kids from well to do families that would steal for the thrill of it. These are questions I cannot answer. I do have some hope because if we can teach kids not to touch hot stoves or stick things in electrical outlets, we can early on establish principals of self respect, honesty, and morality.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Vk3jed on Fri Aug 21 13:03:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Vk3jed to Moondog on Fri Aug 21 2020 07:34 pm

    On 08-20-20 09:27, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Very true. The abnormally gifted people will be the ones who can recognize and categorize the genes that stand out.

    Exactly, and what's been happening in Silicon Valley in recent years is more evidence that suggests neurodvergent people are a significant contributing factor to today's technology. Basically, it is a known fact that there is a unusually high prevalence of autism in Silicon Valley, and that is put down there being a concentration of autistic traits among the engineers and other tech people who live and work there. And as most people meet their partners through local and work connections, those people are having kids together, concentrating those traits.

    Some food for thought...

    https://www.womenofsiliconvalley.com/blog/neurodiversity-in-silicon-valley

    And here's a different perspective. I met Steve Silberman at an autism conference in Melbourne in 2016, and have a signed copy of his book (mention in the second article below). One chapter of the book talks about activitie and interests like ham radio and pop culture, as well as te Internet, where autistic people congregated. And I have no doubt BBSs are in that category too! :)

    https://tinyurl.com/y7798kza


    ... Some people grow under responsibility. Others merely swell up.

    I've seen many times in discussion forums where some posters lack any form of social etiquette, or drone on after the subject had been changed. Borderline Asperger's Syndrome.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Moondog on Sat Aug 22 18:03:00 2020
    On 08-21-20 13:03, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    I've seen many times in discussion forums where some posters lack any
    form of social etiquette, or drone on after the subject had been
    changed. Borderline Asperger's Syndrome.

    This medium is likely to attract people on the spectrum, because of the high level of technical expertise required, especially for those of us who did it back in the 80s and 90s. :)


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  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Arelor on Sat Aug 22 18:12:00 2020
    On 08-21-20 04:00, Arelor wrote to Andeddu <=-

    Elder animals are somehow common in social species. For example,
    chimps. Primates have an evolutionary pass for old members because old individuals are useful - they can take care of the youngsters while everybody else is busy.

    This is the evolutionary explanation I've read for who humans live for so long past child rearing age.

    Guess what, that is what I see a lot of in Spain. Gandpas taking care
    of the babies when mom and dad are working to put food on the table.

    And a lot of traditional societies have their elders participate more in clild rearing and other aspects of running the village. Many respect their elders too, unlike many Western societies, who lock them up in "norsing homes". :/


    ... A sine curve goes off to infinity or at least the end of the blackboard. --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to HusTler on Sat Aug 22 18:17:00 2020
    On 08-21-20 07:15, HusTler wrote to Andeddu <=-

    @VIA: VERT/HAVENS
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to Moondog on Fri Aug 21 2020 02:42 am

    that's socially engineered is one which is ordered, as opposed to the sort o chaotic world we live in today. There are positives and negatives in both systems. In a chaotic world, there's a good chance we'll wipe ourselves out a major nuclear conflict. A stable society that takes no risks, in this example, would be preferable.

    Preferable to who? You? I would hate living in a world like that and would likely off myself. But hey..that's just me.

    I'm with you, that sounds like Hell, or worse - mind numbingly boring and stale. The very things I have an intolerance for. Either I'd find a way to disruot the system, or top myself. :D I am at my most devious when unwarranted conformity is placed upon me.


    ... A lobster is a crawfish on steroids.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
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  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Moondog on Sat Aug 22 18:27:00 2020
    On 08-21-20 12:54, Moondog wrote to Andeddu <=-

    Before fixing a problem, the root cause must be established. Why do people turn to crime? Why do gangs exist? Why do people blindly allow bad things to happen in their neighborhoods? Why do these same people
    fear the police showing up? Why do people resort to violence?
    Questions like these will need to be answered first before we can
    consider making changes.

    I agree, and there's plrnty of evidence that suggests a lot of modern day social issues are because of the way our society is structured, and they are mostly fixable, if there is the social and political will to do so. Modern society can be very alienating - we no longer have the village that nurtured us - despite our connectivity, we are in many ways isolated in deeper ways that affect us.

    I agree we'll never have world peace or eliminate all crime. Crime is
    not just a poverty issue. I knew kids from well to do families that
    would steal for the thrill of it. These are questions I cannot answer.
    I do have some hope because if we can teach kids not to touch hot
    stoves or stick things in electrical outlets, we can early on establish principals of self respect, honesty, and morality.

    I think we have to look after emotional and mental health issues better for both men and women, but in different ways for each.


    ... A beer delayed is a beer denied.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Andeddu on Sat Aug 22 13:43:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Moondog <=-

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Moondog to Andeddu on Wed Aug 19 2020 09:56 am

    Earlier this year I heard the quote: "Ships are safe when anchored
    in protected harbors. But that's what ships are for." By the same theme I view humans as builders and problem solvers. There is an innate curiosity where humans will take risks to seek answers. In order gorw and move on as a civilization, there needs to be some form of suffering or discomfort: a reason
    to discover and implement changes. Places where this is absent are where people toil in poverty and discomfort. As problem solvers, we need to find wa ys to improve conditions in these areas to encourage growth rather than pump
    in money and resources to pacify these people.

    That's the problem with social engineering. As an
    administrator/dictator, your objective would be to retain the status
    quo by any means. This stifles innovation by the promotion of
    conformity via strict regulations. A world that's socially engineered
    is one which is ordered, as opposed to the sort of chaotic world we
    live in today. There are positives and negatives in both systems. In a chaotic world, there's a good chance we'll wipe ourselves out in a
    major nuclear conflict. A stable society that takes no risks, in this example, would be preferable.

    Anddedu, you are such a confused individual. I don't know how your brain holds itself together.

    All totalitarian regimes enforce a status quo, and want a stable society that takes no risks (to upset the status quo).

    You are LITERALLY advocating totalitarian dictatorship, and then, at the same time, wanting to avoid conflict.

    So you want dicatorships, but will pathologise any individuals or nations, that won't succumb, and blame THEM for violence, if they resist enslavement!!

    My God man!!!!


    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Andeddu on Sat Aug 22 13:43:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Thu Aug 20 2020 10:03 pm

    I did buy and read Strange Death of Europe. A lot of it were things I had ruminated on, or guessed to some degree, but Douglas Murray wrote with great clarity. I'm pretty convinced we are in a general civilisational decline, don't let the iPhone's fool you.

    People have become so cocooned, coddled, they have lost connection with reality, and are functioning in a make-believe world.

    Yes, I agree that through our very poor educational system, people are going to forget, discard or even repudiate the high culture we once had (The Renaissance, The Age of Enlightenment, etc)... and in doing so,
    our civilisation will end not with a bang, but with a wimper.

    I mean just compare Rembrant's masterpieces to present day art, for example!

    I don't recall The Renaissance and The Age of Enlightenment esposing values which turned humans into mindless sheep which would blindly follow someone elses value system.


    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Andeddu on Sat Aug 22 08:48:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Arelor <=-

    The world is more peaceful this century than it ever was.
    The Middle Ages consistend in warlords who swore fealty among each other and waged war against other warlords all day long.

    In antique times they had rampant slavery, they killed you for holding the wrong opinion, and big empires took lands, killed all the men and enslaved the women and children.

    We are much better today than we used to be.

    The 20th century is the most murderous in world history. Two
    world wars, a huge number of violent revolutions and ethnic
    cleansing resulted in around 190 million deaths. The middle ages
    were rather tame in comparison.

    Guess what! You're a little behind. It's now the 21st Century.

    Also you should brush up on your history a little. Ever heard of
    the Inquisition/Crusades? How about the Black Death? Perhaps
    other major diseases and famine? Maybe an average lifespan of
    35-ish years old? Does the name Ghengis Khan and the Mongolian
    conquests mean anything?





    ... All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Andeddu on Sat Aug 22 09:05:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Gamgee <=-

    That's the problem with social engineering. As an administrator/dictator, your objective would be to retain the
    status quo by any means. This stifles innovation by the promotion
    of conformity via strict regulations. A world that's socially engineered is one which is ordered, as opposed to the sort of
    chaotic world we live in today. There are positives and negatives
    in both systems. In a chaotic world, there's a good chance we'll
    wipe ourselves out in a major nuclear conflict. A stable society
    that takes no risks, in this example, would be preferable.

    No, it wouldn't. Wrong, again.

    Okay... have fun scavenging in a barren nuclear wasteland!

    Honestly, I would rather do that than be a mindless sheep
    controlled by some dictator/Borg. Seriously.

    But it's not likely to happen, because your statement above is
    flawed/wrong anyway. I don't agree that there's a "good chance"
    we'll wipe ourselves out in a major nuclear conflict.

    A society that takes no risks doesn't last very long.



    ... Time flies like an arrow -- fruit flies like a banana.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Moondog on Sat Aug 22 07:21:00 2020
    Moondog wrote to Andeddu <=-

    In the film and TV series for Logan's Run, the age was 30. My underrstanding from what others said, the age is younger in the
    original story.

    It was 21, but the actors they wanted were older than that, so they
    changed it. The math didn't work out quite right, as it was supposed
    to be 7 years per color.

    Jenny Agutter.

    Everyone is dietarily "on the pill," so sex with
    multiple partners is a common activity.

    Jenny Agutter.

    Children are genetically
    designed from harvested DNA and grown in artficial wombs, and the
    children are raised by the system without parents. In one part of the film they implied sometime there are unplanned children, and they are normally taken to an older, less visited are of the domed city. It
    looked like a cathedral long abandoned by the culture, and the
    residents there live off the grid.

    Jenny Agutter.




    ... Would you like to wake up from this dream?
    --- MultiMail/XT v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ realitycheckBBS -- http://realitycheckBBS.org
  • From HusTler@VERT/HAVENS to Andeddu on Sat Aug 22 08:36:47 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Andeddu to HusTler on Sat Aug 22 2020 02:14 am

    I'm a New Yorker. The Mayor Blazio is Delusional and talks tough until
    the city needs money from the feds. Then he blames the feds (President)

    Well, guess what? The NYC police has endorsed Donald Trump.

    I did see that the US policing federation formally endorsed Trump, which is quite a statement as they usually remain impartial. New York is such a

    It makes the statement "we need law enforcement". The fact of the matter is blacks disrespect police and resist arrest. I don't want New York City to turn into another Portland or Seattle. These people must be stopped and law enforcement is the only way to do that.


    HusTler
    havens.synchro.net:23

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Havens BBS havens.synchro.net
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Vk3jed on Sat Aug 22 14:43:26 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Vk3jed to Arelor on Sat Aug 22 2020 06:12 pm

    And a lot of traditional societies have their elders participate more in cli rearing and other aspects of running the village. Many respect their elders too, unlike many Western societies, who lock them up in "norsing homes". :/

    Most people don't lock their elders in nursing homes because they want to. Many elders become non-functional and their families just canç't take proper care
    of them.

    Lots of people complain about nursing homes and elders that don't get frequent visits from their sons, but if grandpa's brain turns into a potato there is just no point in paying him lots of visits, since he does not register the fact he is being visited anymore.

    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Vk3jed on Sat Aug 22 12:06:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Vk3jed to Moondog on Sat Aug 22 2020 06:03 pm

    On 08-21-20 13:03, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    I've seen many times in discussion forums where some posters lack any form of social etiquette, or drone on after the subject had been changed. Borderline Asperger's Syndrome.

    This medium is likely to attract people on the spectrum, because of the high level of technical expertise required, especially for those of us who did it back in the 80s and 90s. :)


    ... Warranty: If it breaks, both halves are yours.

    I was able to click on a link on Benj's website, and open a telnet window. I wouldn't consider that expertise. I get what you're saying, though. It's a bit off the beaten path, and I think that also attracts a different crowd, whether they are retro computing or appreciate the perks and quirks of the interface.


    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Vk3jed on Sat Aug 22 12:15:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Vk3jed to HusTler on Sat Aug 22 2020 06:17 pm



    I'm with you, that sounds like Hell, or worse - mind numbingly boring and stale. The very things I have an intolerance for. Either I'd find a way to disruot the system, or top myself. :D I am at my most devious when unwarran conformity is placed upon me.


    It sounds like you would be the perfect candidate for space exploration or oce an exploration. Mankind is not made for staying in a cradle all it's life. Remote colonies with the most adversity will require leaders and mavericks
    that can think on the go, since doing nothing can deliver the same results
    as doing the wrong thing.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Boraxman on Sat Aug 22 12:21:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Boraxman to Andeddu on Sat Aug 22 2020 01:43 pm

    Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Thu Aug 20 2020 10:03 pm

    I did buy and read Strange Death of Europe. A lot of it were things I ha ruminated on, or guessed to some degree, but Douglas Murray wrote with gr clarity. I'm pretty convinced we are in a general civilisational decline don't let the iPhone's fool you.

    People have become so cocooned, coddled, they have lost connection with reality, and are functioning in a make-believe world.

    Yes, I agree that through our very poor educational system, people are going to forget, discard or even repudiate the high culture we once had (The Renaissance, The Age of Enlightenment, etc)... and in doing so, our civilisation will end not with a bang, but with a wimper.

    I mean just compare Rembrant's masterpieces to present day art, for example!

    I don't recall The Renaissance and The Age of Enlightenment esposing values which turned humans into mindless sheep which would blindly follow someone elses value system.


    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!

    The Rennaisance followed the Crusades, and the revolution in math and science are byproducts of crusaders bringing back knowledge and technology from the Mi ddle East. Someone else did all the hard thinking, and a bunch of Europeans patted themsleves on the back for applying someone else' work they stole.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Gamgee on Sat Aug 22 12:25:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Gamgee to Andeddu on Sat Aug 22 2020 09:05 am



    Okay... have fun scavenging in a barren nuclear wasteland!

    Honestly, I would rather do that than be a mindless sheep
    controlled by some dictator/Borg. Seriously.

    But it's not likely to happen, because your statement above is
    flawed/wrong anyway. I don't agree that there's a "good chance"
    we'll wipe ourselves out in a major nuclear conflict.

    A society that takes no risks doesn't last very long.


    I agree. Ships are safe when sitting in a harbor. That is not what ships
    are for. Doing nothing or making no decision is making a poor decision.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Arelor on Sun Aug 23 15:59:00 2020
    On 08-22-20 14:43, Arelor wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Most people don't lock their elders in nursing homes because they want
    to. Many elders become non-functional and their families just can¡'t
    take proper care of them.

    And that is because our society has divided us. What if we were a village that looked after our elders collectively, as well as the kids?

    And nursing homes here are getting a bad rap right now, especially the privatised ones, because they've become hot spots fro COVID-19. In Victoria, where I am, only a hadful of cases can be attributed to the state government run nursing homes, but the private ones are in all sorts of bother. And the Federal government who oversees aged care have known about chronic underfunding and other issues with the privatised system for years. And there is a Royal Commission into aged care that started last year, long before COVID.


    ... Good judgement comes from experience which comes from poor judgement
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Moondog on Sun Aug 23 16:04:00 2020
    On 08-22-20 12:06, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    I was able to click on a link on Benj's website, and open a telnet
    window. I wouldn't consider that expertise. I get what you're saying, though. It's a bit off the beaten path, and I think that also attracts
    a different crowd, whether they are retro computing or appreciate the perks and quirks of the interface.

    I was talking as a _sysop_, especially with the older software (Mystic and Synchronet make it dead easy by comparison). And even as a user back then, you often had to deal with IRQ and COM purt issues, installing the right UARTs, if you wanted high speed comms. Many BBS users were also computer tinkerers, and BBSing was an extension of that hobby (and a useful source of shareware!).

    We of the 2020s can forget how easy we have it, where the technical complexity of networking is hidden away (you should see a KA9Q NOS config file - talk about the ins and outs of a duck's bum there! :D


    ... I do not think it means what you think it means.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Moondog on Sun Aug 23 16:08:00 2020
    On 08-22-20 12:15, Moondog wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    It sounds like you would be the perfect candidate for space exploration
    or oce an exploration. Mankind is not made for staying in a cradle all it's life. Remote colonies with the most adversity will require leaders and mavericks that can think on the go, since doing nothing can deliver the same results as doing the wrong thing.

    I am known for quietly circumventing social conventions, where appropriate. I will more or less play ball, but keep options up my sleeve, just in case. Or I'll find ways around their objections without going against their wishes - I've had times where my solution was hard to argue against, once it was understood. :) Some are now standard practice in some ham radio circles. :D


    ... Ignorance is no excuse-it's the real thing.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun Aug 23 01:54:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Moondog on Sat Aug 22 2020 07:21 am



    Jenny Agutter.



    Yes. Nice casting! I nearly forgot Farrah Fawcett appears as the doctor's assistant hwne they went to change their appearance.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Vk3jed on Sun Aug 23 08:50:03 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Vk3jed to Arelor on Sun Aug 23 2020 03:59 pm

    And that is because our society has divided us. What if we were a village t looked after our elders collectively, as well as the kids?

    Letting the tribe look after the kids collectively sounds like such an ugly idea.

    Same with elders, really. By the time you cannot afford to have your elder in home, you are past the point you can ask a neighbor to look after him.

    I wouldnç't have let my grandmother anywhere else but under professional care when she went past the point we could take care of her.

    I know who my neighbors are and I would not trust a candy bar to them.

    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Moondog on Mon Aug 24 01:56:14 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Moondog to Andeddu on Fri Aug 21 2020 12:23 pm

    In the film and TV series for Logan's Run, the age was 30. My underrstanding from what others said, the age is younger in the original story. Everyone is dietarily "on the pill," so sex with multiple partners is a common activity. Children are genetically designed from harvested DNA and grown in artficial wombs, and the children are raised by the system without parents. In one
    part of the film they implied sometime there are unplanned children, and they are normally taken to an older, less visited are of the domed city. It looked like a cathedral long abandoned by the culture, and the residents there live off the grid.

    I'll have to watch the movie. I will pick it up sometime soon and see it because I am interested in the subject matter, and it's a fairly famous film. I just think 30 is a little young as the idea is that you sacrifice yourself for the good of society once you become a net deficit due to old age.

    It's interesting to see that these ideas have been around for almost 90 years and technology has only just caught up. I wonder if some of these outlandish schemes are going to be put into practice in ther future.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Moondog on Mon Aug 24 02:07:11 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Moondog to Andeddu on Fri Aug 21 2020 12:38 pm

    A society that is too slow to react to change can also be a detriment.

    There has to be moderation. The Catholic church, for instance, was unable to accept new ideas. It inflicted death unto those who refused to believe its version of the faith... as Christianity is (technically) set in stone though the old literature, zealous believers did everything they could to preserve the original structure and core ideals.

    I think the core ideals of a civilisaiton should remain the same, however, other (less important) aspects can be open to adaptation. Change everything and you end up with chaos.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Moondog on Mon Aug 24 02:17:15 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Moondog to Andeddu on Fri Aug 21 2020 12:54 pm

    Before fixing a problem, the root cause must be established. Why do people turn to crime? Why do gangs exist? Why do people blindly allow bad things to happen in their neighborhoods? Why do these same people fear the police showing up? Why do people resort to violence? Questions like these will need to be answered first before we can consider making changes.

    I agree we'll never have world peace or eliminate all crime. Crime is not just a poverty issue. I knew kids from well to do families that would steal for the thrill of it. These are questions I cannot answer. I do have some hope because if we can teach kids not to touch hot stoves or stick things in electrical outlets, we can early on establish principals of self respect, honesty, and morality.

    People kill each other for the most trivial of reasons, and I am not just referring to Medieval times. The Catohlics and Protestants have been murdering each other for centuries, and they beleive in the same God... likewise so do the Sunnis and Shias. Until we have a universal belief system, there will never be peace.

    A lot of people are just born bad. There isn't much that can be done to help them especially if they're supposed to abide by the strict confines of a civilised society.

    So we are left with the only solution which is to genetically alter people to be kinder and more empathetic, and have a universal belief system...

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Boraxman on Mon Aug 24 02:34:00 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Boraxman to Andeddu on Sat Aug 22 2020 01:43 pm

    Anddedu, you are such a confused individual. I don't know how your brain holds itself together.

    All totalitarian regimes enforce a status quo, and want a stable society that takes no risks (to upset the status quo).

    You are LITERALLY advocating totalitarian dictatorship, and then, at the same time, wanting to avoid conflict.

    So you want dicatorships, but will pathologise any individuals or nations, that won't succumb, and blame THEM for violence, if they resist enslavement!!

    My God man!!!!

    I have spoken earlier about this. In order to achieve a totalitarian state, whether benevolant or not, there will have to be a transitional period. This transitional period will be a period of crisis and conflict followed by normalisation of the new way of life, which is dictated by the new regime.

    I am not advocating anything by the way... I am merely discussing ideas in relation to difficult questions. I don't consider myself right or wrong - it's just a debate on ideological beliefs regarding economic, political and social systems.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Boraxman on Mon Aug 24 02:36:18 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Boraxman to Andeddu on Sat Aug 22 2020 01:43 pm

    I don't recall The Renaissance and The Age of Enlightenment esposing values which turned humans into mindless sheep which would blindly follow someone elses value system.

    No, they didn't really have "The Borg" mentalitiy... which is a shame.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Gamgee on Mon Aug 24 02:41:47 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Gamgee to Andeddu on Sat Aug 22 2020 08:48 am

    The 20th century is the most murderous in world history. Two
    world wars, a huge number of violent revolutions and ethnic
    cleansing resulted in around 190 million deaths. The middle ages
    were rather tame in comparison.

    Guess what! You're a little behind. It's now the 21st Century.

    Also you should brush up on your history a little. Ever heard of
    the Inquisition/Crusades? How about the Black Death? Perhaps
    other major diseases and famine? Maybe an average lifespan of
    35-ish years old? Does the name Ghengis Khan and the Mongolian
    conquests mean anything?

    We will have to wait and see if the 21st Century is the most vicious and bloody, won't we? It's not like we can call it right now... we are only 20 years in ffs.

    The Black Death was a disease that killed millions of people, not an example of humans being mindless butchers.

    Yes, I have heard of all of those Crusades and Conquests, yet they still pale in comparison to the 20th Century... I never said we weren't violent in the past. In actuality, I said, we have always been violent and have never achieved peace in all of human history.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to HusTler on Mon Aug 24 03:08:01 2020
    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: HusTler to Andeddu on Sat Aug 22 2020 08:36 am

    It makes the statement "we need law enforcement". The fact of the matter is blacks disrespect police and resist arrest. I don't want New York City to turn into another Portland or Seattle. These people must be stopped and law enforcement is the only way to do that.

    We need safer communities, and for that to happen... we need more police, not fewer. A lower level of crime would attract businesses which would rejuvinate the area. I don't see how reducing the policing budget could EVER reduce crime as it would only reinforce the spiral of violence, poverty and destitution.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Arelor on Mon Aug 24 19:21:00 2020
    On 08-23-20 08:50, Arelor wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Letting the tribe look after the kids collectively sounds like such an ugly idea.

    It worked for most of humanity's existence. Our currently tightly controlled nuclear families are a very recent development, and more of a Western idea. Even today, many other cultures have much stronger extended families than we
    o.

    I know who my neighbors are and I would not trust a candy bar to them.

    Again, in the context of a very sick and unnatural society. :/


    ... DalekDOS v(overflow): (I)Obey (V)ision impaired (E)xterminate
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Andeddu on Mon Aug 24 21:49:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Andeddu on Thu Aug 20 2020 10:07 pm

    Yes, there are a lot of harmful people, who want to control us, dominate us, screw us over. That is why I object to social engineering, to having someone with authority dicate what we can do, how we should think, engineer us, because far, far, far more likely than not, the person who will get to decide how we should go "forward" will be one of these self-serving assholes. And they may not come accross that way. They may come accross as professional, smiley, seemingly rational and selfless.

    You are talking of engineering people. I'm saying that if we think we should be engineered, the worst of society will do the engineering. The people who want to do "good" are often the worst. Some of the nastiest people I've met, are people who claim to fight for minorities and the underclass, etc. Anti-racism is hateful. Inclusion is just discimination by another name.

    I believe that we can engineer a better breed of human. I am not particularly interested in intelligence or anything in relation to
    race. I would just like to believe that we could consistently produce
    kind and caring human beings... altruists who do good for the sake of
    it, asking for nothing else in return.

    These people are rare, as most people are equally bad as they are good. This is hypothetical, of course, as the person or people likely to
    promote such an agenda would have to be benevolent & kind themselves... traits that are generally absent in those who wield true power.

    The problem is, in my experience, kind and caring people get screwed over by those that are now. I would like that outcome, I really, really, really would.
    But these kind and caring people wouldn't compete for positions of power in society (they would lose), or for status. Like it or not, being willing to lie, cheat, steal, decieve and be a parasite still get you far. Why? Because most people have the awareness of a bag of rocks, and the same courage. So many people just don't recognise when someone is playing them, or even if they do, they don't do anything, becuase perhaps that speaking up against it would draw attention to you, and you don't want that.

    I think self-awareness and bravery are what we need. People who can tell what is going on around them, and don't just bend to the crowd, or "play the game". See, this is contrary to a society where everyone agrees.

    IF you have people like this, the kind, caring, conscienscous people will stand a better chance..

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Moondog on Mon Aug 24 21:49:00 2020
    Moondog wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Neuralink
    By: Dennisk to Moondog on Fri Aug 21 2020 08:50 am



    IF you breed people into sheep, they will be MORE likely to commit mass violence. Nazi Germany wasn't exactly populated by people who were free to express their own moral and political ideas, and challenge the mandated morality.

    The idea about dropping Ramone's albums sounds cute, but is ridiculous. I think a good start towards a better society is not thinking that celebrities with opinions are a good source of guidance. A society is pretty broken whe it thinks that Madonna's opinion of French politics for example, somehow carries any weight.


    Rollins is an entertainer, although he attempts political commentary.
    I listen to his spoken word for entertainment only. I found the idea entertaining something simple as finding a comnon ground of music appreciation could help find greater common ground. In truth, most enemies are so clouded by hate, they would find a way to spin that
    common ground into more hate.

    I think ideology and false beliefs are the start, the hate is just there to motivate the flawed ideas.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Andeddu on Mon Aug 24 22:09:00 2020