• Re: Linux

    From Atroxi@VERT to Dennisk on Fri Aug 7 13:35:00 2020
    Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Some Linux users 'distro-hop', they move from distro to distro every 6 months, start fresh, I couldn't think of anything worse. In 5 years
    time, my "workstation" will still be as it is now, as it was 5 years
    and more ago.

    I think there's some merit in distrohopping, though I used to distrohop myself haha! On one side, it's an exercise in software freedom and on
    the other, it's finding out what package distribution model works for
    you. As I've mentioned, I used to distrohop a lot before. Started with Ubuntu, then went around the Ubuntu derivaties (Xubuntu, Ubuntu MATE, etc.) then dove into Arch, Manjaro and Gentoo ultimately finding my
    place in Void Linux which has been my distro for the past three years
    now.

    Currently considering trying out Guix or just going back to Gentoo for that flexibility, but let's see. I'm being quite lazy lately. :-)

    Is there any real qualitative difference between them? I do need to switch away from Fedora on my laptop soon, as Fedora dropped 32 bit support. I'm thinking Debian. Someone raved about Mint, but I'm not
    sure what day-to-day difference there would be aside from the contents
    of the repository.

    In my limited experience distrohopping, most of the difference lies
    with how minimal stuff are post-install and the package manager that
    they use (... also the init system). For example, Arch, Debian, Gentoo
    and Void Linux all are quite minimal post-install, though there are DE options, which means that you have to install most of the programs yourself. Which is great for a tinkerer and customizability standpoint
    but would be a pain for someone who just wants a system that works.
    Also, Gentoo and Void Linux use OpenRC and runit respectively which
    some might care about.

    Package manager-wise, some argue that apt lacks features that pacman
    has, but you might have to look it up if it applies to your use case. Portage is source based and I really like fiddling with USE flags and stuff and the excitement of building software that are just slightly optimized for your hardware just don't lose their charm (0.5 sec faster boot time, aww yeah :-P). XBPS is much more leaner and simpler from a "user maintaing the system" standpoint.

    I find XBPS and runit to be just right for me. It's powerful, simple
    and fast.

    OK, that is what I thought it would be. I'm a tinkerer, so the
    "default" is only what lasts that 5 minutes until I switch to the GUI, shell and personalisation I want to use, and install the standard
    software I consider essential for my system. Anytime I've set up a new Linux machine (which isn't that often), that is the first thing I do.
    Last time I installed Linux on a netbook, I ended up just copying most
    of my config from my main machines home directy, used the same Window Manager (FVWM) with almost the same configuration, and installed the
    same software that I use day to day, or occasionally need.

    Yeah, if that's the case a more minimal install would be more apt for you. I had this period of time that minimal distros scared the crap out of me and I would rather just go through Ubuntu, install all my stuff there are remove all of the other unnecessary stuff that I didn't need. It's quite silly actually now that I think about it. But yeah, since you have your own workflow jive, it would probably better if you have a minimal install since then you'll just be adding stuff into it.

    Maybe it matters more for new users, the distro's defaults.

    Oh certainly, I think the defaults are really more for the new users at some point once you go deep into the GNU/Linux rabbit hole you'll eventually develop your own workflow which might not be similar to the distro's defaults.


    ... Whatever happens, happens.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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  • From Atroxi@VERT to Vk3jed on Fri Aug 7 15:41:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Atroxi <=-

    On 08-06-20 09:14, Atroxi wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    On the other hand, mine's the exact reverse, haha! There are instances that I'm using older or more esoteric software and as such are often
    not provided in the package repositories, I usually end up compiling
    those ones from source if I can't find an .appimage or similar for it.

    Sometimes compiling older software on a modern distro can be a
    challenge too! :) I have struck that one myself.

    I swear, I think most of the "usability" of Windows comes from decades long familiarity of people with the operating system (and fairly aggressive push of M$ to include Windows by default to computers, as
    well as teaching M$ software by default in schools). Though I have
    grown up using Windows as well, taking a step back and looking at the whole process of just even installing drivers in a new Windows system feels like a pain. Going to dodgy websites, trusting that .CAB or .EXE file are not some ransomware of sorts and in the end, praying to the Operating System Gods that the driver you just installed would actually make that device work. It's even much more painful when using
    "esoteric" software that would somehow demand some unknown .dll file
    that you have no idea why you don't have or why it's needed in the
    first place.

    Yes, a lot of Windows is familiarity. I'm equally well versed in both Windows and Linux - both are equally familiar, as I have been running Linux since 1995, Windows only a few years earlier.

    One thing I do notice with Windows is other than the Microsoft
    components, upgrades are driven by individual vendors, while on Linux, updates are generally managed by the distribution maintainers. While
    the Linux way is great in that it's generally painless, and reboots are rarely needed (only when upgrading the kernel and possibly glibc), some apps, like Firefox aren't updated as promptly or automatically as they
    are on Windows.

    Just different ways of doing things.

    Yeah, I agree. It's basically just picking your own poison, haha! :-)

    True, though I do find it annoying when key desktop apps don't update
    on Linux like they do on Windows, even after using the distro's package management.

    What are the examples of these? I'm quite curious as I haven't really encountered any. But I think that's also because I don't use that much software anyway.

    ... Whatever happens, happens.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Atroxi@VERT to Vk3jed on Fri Aug 7 15:43:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Atroxi <=-

    On 08-06-20 09:19, Atroxi wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    For me, it depends on the application. A lot of ham radio applications these days are built for either Debian or Ubuntu, and there's often packages for only those distros (e.g. AllStar, DVSwitch) are easiest installed on Debian Stretch, where they can be installed from apt repositories.

    Oh wow. I've been thinking of getting into ham radio recently, just because of this whole pandemic thing is making me a bit looney at
    times. It's great that there's good support for those in GNU/Linux.

    It's good for these crazy times. I get on a "welfare net" most
    mornings, where hams around this end of the country get on and let each other know how things are going, and compare notes on lockdown
    survival. :)

    Man, that's so interesting. I should get a license too soon, but the pandemic really put a stop into anything here. Now we're facing an economic recession and just doing my morning reading of the news makes me sad.

    It's exactly this, isn't it? We use what fits the best for our needs. Though I do think there's also pleasure in just figuring how stuff
    works in different systems, if you have nothing better to do that is.
    :-P

    Haha I certainly don't have time, plenty of things on the go here.
    While I find the concept of Gentoo interesting, I can't see it working
    for me. :)

    ... The exception also declares the rule

    ... Not enough mail? Here, let me help...

    Haha I bet! :D


    ... Virtue is a relative term. Spock, Friday's Child, stardate 3499.1.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
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    freeway.apana.org.au

    ... Whatever happens, happens.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Atroxi on Fri Aug 7 18:54:00 2020
    On 08-07-20 15:41, Atroxi wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    True, though I do find it annoying when key desktop apps don't update
    on Linux like they do on Windows, even after using the distro's package management.

    What are the examples of these? I'm quite curious as I haven't really encountered any. But I think that's also because I don't use that much software anyway.

    I have had distros install an old version of Firefox, and had to install a copy in my user profile from the Mozilla site, so it would update using its own mechanisms.


    ... Great thing about UDP jokes? I don't care if you get them.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Atroxi on Fri Aug 7 18:58:00 2020
    On 08-07-20 15:43, Atroxi wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    It's good for these crazy times. I get on a "welfare net" most
    mornings, where hams around this end of the country get on and let each other know how things are going, and compare notes on lockdown
    survival. :)

    Man, that's so interesting. I should get a license too soon, but the pandemic really put a stop into anything here. Now we're facing an economic recession and just doing my morning reading of the news makes
    me sad.

    We're up for a recession here too, though due to fortuitous circumstances, we're relatively insulated from the worst effects of it. Good news is there some cheap ways to get started, especially on the highly (and globally) networked VHF/UHF bands, which is where our nets operate.


    ... We're not retreating - we're advancing in another direction.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Atroxi on Fri Aug 7 02:29:57 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Atroxi to Vk3jed on Fri Aug 07 2020 03:41 pm

    Hey man, super glad you're fitting in and enjoying yourself. This is not meant to be a killjoy message in any respect, but just a heads up:

    You don't need to include the entirety of previos messages in your reply quoting. Try to just quote the relevant and needed parts to remind people what you're replying to; for those reading on the typical 80x24 terminal screen a wall of reply quote can get in the way of message flow a bit.

    Sometime's it's a bit of an art to pick the quote lines appropriately, but I'm sure you'll get the hang of it quickly :)
    ---
    Underminer
    The Undermine BBS - bbs.undermine.ca:423
    Fidonet: 1:342/17
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Undermine - bbs.undermine.ca:423
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Atroxi on Fri Aug 7 20:07:00 2020
    Yeah, if that's the case a more minimal install would be more apt for
    you. I had this period of time that minimal distros scared the crap out
    of me and I would rather just go through Ubuntu, install all my stuff there are remove all of the other unnecessary stuff that I didn't need. It's quite silly actually now that I think about it. But yeah, since
    you have your own workflow jive, it would probably better if you have a minimal install since then you'll just be adding stuff into it.

    Maybe it matters more for new users, the distro's defaults.

    Oh certainly, I think the defaults are really more for the new users at some point once you go deep into the GNU/Linux rabbit hole you'll eventually develop your own workflow which might not be similar to the distro's defaults.

    Red Hat or Fedora has something called a "kixstart" file or something like that, which would have all the config options for a new install, or most of them. Better than multiple spins. You could download the distro intaller, and then the config you want, then simply load the config you want at install.

    One spin, multiple outcomes.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Vk3jed on Fri Aug 7 20:39:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Atroxi <=-

    On 08-07-20 15:41, Atroxi wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    True, though I do find it annoying when key desktop apps don't update
    on Linux like they do on Windows, even after using the distro's package management.

    What are the examples of these? I'm quite curious as I haven't really encountered any. But I think that's also because I don't use that much software anyway.

    I have had distros install an old version of Firefox, and had to
    install a copy in my user profile from the Mozilla site, so it would update using its own mechanisms.


    Which distro? Distro's update the included software, but some have older versions. Debian for example will usually hold older versions of software because they update theirs less frequently. I like Debian, but I found when I tried it the age of the software was occasionally a problem, especially with youtube-dl which I use a lot.

    A better option is to use a distro that keeps modern, such as Fedora. I use Fedora and the versions of software included is new enough to not be a problem.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Atroxi on Fri Aug 7 12:14:00 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Atroxi to Dennisk on Fri Aug 07 2020 01:22 pm

    Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    The only problem is that if many people switch to Linux, developers will turn it into "Windows" in order to accomodate all the new users. That is the catch 22. Linux is great becase of choice, customisability and being able to hack and modify, but with a limited audience, there is less impetus for software and hardware support. But if it were to get more users, and better software and hardware support, distros would start to neglect "power users" and make it another "Consumer OS", locked down.

    I think GNU/Linux "turning into Windows" wouldn't be that much of a problem and I think this is happening already anyway with the more "user-friendly" distros such as Mint and Ubuntu. I quite doubt whether the operating system would be as locked down as Windows or OSX though. Perhaps there might be some distros that would do that for the sake "user-friendliness" but I doubt most distros would follow suit. I think there will always be minimial distros and the Free nature of the operating system ensures that; should they want to use something full-featured like Mint or something minimal like Arch or Gentoo.

    I think pulling people into GNU/Linux would ultimately be a net positive as it would, as you mentioned, deal with the lack of impetus for software and hardware support in the operating system. Though, now that I'm typing this, I don't think it's that big of a deal nowadays? Whenever I install GNU/Linux to a new machine, usually laptops, most of the stuff generally work out of the box sans wifi or bluetooth. But anyway, I think getting more people into GNU/Linux would give impetus to kernel development, and, hopefully, to have that Free software support on wifi and bluetooth drivers would be a godsend.

    The only issue that I was thinking with more people getting into GNU/Linux would probably be the increase in nonfree stuff. Though I think by just plain awareness in GNU/Linux would also bring forth Free software principles and, hopefully, inspire more developers to develop towards that as well. :-)

    I started using Linux in 2000, and back then the focus was on getting "mom" to use it. Linux users seemed to believe that "mom" had to use it, and this market was important to unseat Microsoft. I don't believe that anymore, and I think Linux will always be, and should be, niche. Also, I think the attempts are misguided, as the barrier is more to do with inertia, documentation, not the fact that Gnome wasn't controlled by systemd, or that we don't have apps which override window decorations, etc, or a containerised software installation system. My wife who is not computer literate navigates KDE Plasma just fine, as does my 8 year old daughter, who has been able to work the GUI for some time now. Linux is and has been usable for some time now.

    In part, the problem is that because Linux is a developers OS, developers approach the problem in terms of what new code can be written. So the "solution" always tend to be, more code, another standard, another frameworks, which is NOT what Linux needs. And these solutions are always promoted from the developers POV. The simplification Linux needs is not new software or a new GUI, but rather simplification of choice and method. There are too many distros, and different distros have different 'spins', even more confusing! Sadly, even Puppy Linux is like that know, with multiple Puppies. Even *I* get confused! There is Ubuntu, Lubuntu, Xubuntu, this spin, that spin.
    There are multiple ways to do things, and which ones work depends on your distro. Developers believe that there should be a uniform look, but then they change their GUI, its a bit braindead to be honest. No one is in charge.

    In the ideal world, there would only be a small number of distros, you could count them on one hand, each one designed for a different use case (full PC, portable, single board PC), one package mangement system (RPM or DEB, I'm not fussed, but I prefer RPM) and sub-systems which can actually be understood, are well documented and don't constantly break. Pulseaudio would not exist and there would be no braindead ideas where the software tries to be too "clever", (pulse audio), and things would not break on updates. There would be agreement on standards. Software and hardware vendors would actually be able to release a package that will work for all Linux users.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!

    I agree that I think people should not jam GNU/Linux to other people's throats by "getting them into using it". I think the operating system should speak for itself, for its features and its benefits for the people meaning to use it. Give them a reason to switch and it should be their choice in doing so. Though, I don't know, with people slowly being privacy aware and now cares about how and where their data is being used, GNU/Linux becomes more increasingly the sole choice for such users should that be the case, GNU/Linux will cease to be a niche operating system. Though I'd argue that it isn't the case anymore...? I've been seeing mass use of GNU/Linux systems in my university and some opt to using it because it interfaces well with our university stuff. Sure, I think the more minimal ones will always remain niche. Arch, Gentoo, Slackware and the likes will never achieve the same amount of popularity that Mint and Ubuntu experiences.

    Yeah, I think the problem with adoption's to do with inertia mostly, for people to adopt GNU/Linux there must be a functional, practical and tangible reason for them to do so. Something like deep, underlying systems such as the init system or linux subsystems are stuff that a normal person would not care about. They don't care whether their system boots 0.5 seconds slower because systemd is bloated or whatnot. Though, I'd argue that such questions have their place and that we shouldn't just fall into "meh, it is what it is" mentality. Save those questions for the developers not the users.

    I think the various systems, standards and frameworks that spring up in GNU/Linux is both a good and a bad thing. On one side it shows how active things are in the development side of things and gives any coming user the faith that GNU/Linux won't just be obsolete after a few decades despite not being taken care of by a single monolithic body. On the other side, it is what you mentioned: the amount of stuff presented also puts the user in a paradox of choice situation. Though personally, I think it's a good thing that there's a lot of choices because it's exactly the point of software freedom and that the ideal solution should be more around the "let's create a more consolidated distro" rather than shooting the whole development in the foot slightly by hampering developer freedom and homogenizing things (I prefer my xbps and portage over apt, thank you very much). :-)

    There is choice that matters, and choice that doesn't. That is an individual thing too. For me, the important choices are being able to use the GUI I like, being able to have the system look and act the way I want, backward compatibility and being able to keep existing workflows and capacities. I don't really care about choice of package managers, as long as it works, or choice of distros (as long as the distro doesn't limit me), or choice of installer defaults (you can always change the options).

    Yup, I agree. We shouldn't stife that individual choice which I think is central to how GNU/Linux works.


    ... Whatever happens, happens.

    Linux users are a diverse group with diverse interests. The friendly desktop movement is probably second to the linux server side. Ubuntu and Mint are
    most likely the leaders in the desktop development, and all the little
    Windows and OSX lookalikes depend on these bigger distros momentum.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Atroxi on Fri Aug 7 12:19:00 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Atroxi to Dennisk on Fri Aug 07 2020 01:35 pm

    Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Some Linux users 'distro-hop', they move from distro to distro every 6 months, start fresh, I couldn't think of anything worse. In 5 years time, my "workstation" will still be as it is now, as it was 5 years and more ago.

    I think there's some merit in distrohopping, though I used to distrohop myself haha! On one side, it's an exercise in software freedom and on the other, it's finding out what package distribution model works for you. As I've mentioned, I used to distrohop a lot before. Started with Ubuntu, then went around the Ubuntu derivaties (Xubuntu, Ubuntu MATE, etc.) then dove into Arch, Manjaro and Gentoo ultimately finding my place in Void Linux which has been my distro for the past three years now.

    Currently considering trying out Guix or just going back to Gentoo for that flexibility, but let's see. I'm being quite lazy lately. :-)

    Is there any real qualitative difference between them? I do need to switch away from Fedora on my laptop soon, as Fedora dropped 32 bit support. I'm thinking Debian. Someone raved about Mint, but I'm not sure what day-to-day difference there would be aside from the contents of the repository.

    In my limited experience distrohopping, most of the difference lies with how minimal stuff are post-install and the package manager that they use (... also the init system). For example, Arch, Debian, Gentoo and Void Linux all are quite minimal post-install, though there are DE options, which means that you have to install most of the programs yourself. Which is great for a tinkerer and customizability standpoint but would be a pain for someone who just wants a system that works. Also, Gentoo and Void Linux use OpenRC and runit respectively which some might care about.

    Package manager-wise, some argue that apt lacks features that pacman has, but you might have to look it up if it applies to your use case. Portage is source based and I really like fiddling with USE flags and stuff and the excitement of building software that are just slightly optimized for your hardware just don't lose their charm (0.5 sec faster boot time, aww yeah :-P). XBPS is much more leaner and simpler from a "user maintaing the system" standpoint.

    I find XBPS and runit to be just right for me. It's powerful, simple and fast.

    OK, that is what I thought it would be. I'm a tinkerer, so the "default" is only what lasts that 5 minutes until I switch to the GUI, shell and personalisation I want to use, and install the standard software I consider essential for my system. Anytime I've set up a new Linux machine (which isn't that often), that is the first thing I do. Last time I installed Linux on a netbook, I ended up just copying most of my config from my main machines home directy, used the same Window Manager (FVWM) with almost the same configuration, and installed the same software that I use day to day, or occasionally need.

    Yeah, if that's the case a more minimal install would be more apt for you. I had this period of time that minimal distros scared the crap out of me and I would rather just go through Ubuntu, install all my stuff there are remove a of the other unnecessary stuff that I didn't need. It's quite silly actually now that I think about it. But yeah, since you have your own workflow jive, would probably better if you have a minimal install since then you'll just b adding stuff into it.

    Maybe it matters more for new users, the distro's defaults.

    Oh certainly, I think the defaults are really more for the new users at some point once you go deep into the GNU/Linux rabbit hole you'll eventually deve your own workflow which might not be similar to the distro's defaults.


    ... Whatever happens, happens.

    There are times I would like to go the "linux from scratch" approach,
    however I doubt if something went seriously wrong or if I got too deep in it,
    I wouldn't finish the process. Although if things go smoothly, I would try
    it again to see if i could streamline the process (and learn even more)

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Moondog on Fri Aug 7 18:51:00 2020
    Moondog wrote to Atroxi <=-

    There are times I would like to go the "linux from scratch"
    approach, however I doubt if something went seriously wrong or if
    I got too deep in it, I wouldn't finish the process. Although if
    things go smoothly, I would try it again to see if i could
    streamline the process (and learn even more)

    It's not real difficult - the instructions are pretty much
    step-by-step and all inclusive. Quite tedious after a while, and
    you end up with a bootable but not really useable system until you
    continue with adding everything you need (with BLFS for example).

    I've done it a couple of times, but for me at least, the end
    result is not really worth the effort expended to get there. It
    is a nice learning experience which helps you understand the
    "guts" of Linux, especially the boot process and compiling
    software.

    Depends what your goals and needs are, I guess.



    ... All the easy problems have been solved.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From paulie420@VERT/BEERS20 to Nightfox on Fri Aug 7 18:00:00 2020
    Yep. Although I've thought about switching to Linux, I'm still using Windows as my main OS right now because I have things set up that way
    now and things are w orking okay for me.

    I think whatever works for you is best, but I'm so used to how customizable
    the OS is - I currently use KDE under Ubuntu and you can change ANY item/aspect/area of the OS. I have it like Big Bur MACOS right now...
    sometimes I create my own weird OS style... but I guess fore some people that would be a drawback. For me, its the reason.



    |07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
    |08.........
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Dennisk on Sat Aug 8 15:36:00 2020
    On 08-07-20 20:39, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Which distro? Distro's update the included software, but some have
    older versions. Debian for example will usually hold older versions of software because they update theirs less frequently. I like Debian,
    but I found when I tried it the age of the software was occasionally a problem, especially with youtube-dl which I use a lot.

    Yes, Debian often has older versions, if you use stable. I installed my own Firefox on Mint, IIRC.

    A better option is to use a distro that keeps modern, such as Fedora.
    I use Fedora and the versions of software included is new enough to not
    be a problem.

    I found the rapid release cycle and planned obolescence of Fedora a pain, but it is a solid distro.


    ... Crime doesn't pay... does that mean my job is a crime?
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Gamgee on Sat Aug 8 16:25:00 2020
    On 08-07-20 18:51, Gamgee wrote to Moondog <=-

    Re Linux from Scratch

    I've done it a couple of times, but for me at least, the end
    result is not really worth the effort expended to get there. It
    is a nice learning experience which helps you understand the
    "guts" of Linux, especially the boot process and compiling
    software.

    Learning is probably the only reason I'd do it. Maybe if we get a stage 4 lockdown here, I may have to amuse myself that way. :)


    ... The city is not a concrete jungle. It is a human zoo.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Atroxi@VERT to Vk3jed on Sat Aug 8 11:59:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Atroxi <=-

    On 08-07-20 15:43, Atroxi wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    It's good for these crazy times. I get on a "welfare net" most
    mornings, where hams around this end of the country get on and let each other know how things are going, and compare notes on lockdown
    survival. :)

    Man, that's so interesting. I should get a license too soon, but the pandemic really put a stop into anything here. Now we're facing an economic recession and just doing my morning reading of the news makes
    me sad.

    We're up for a recession here too, though due to fortuitous
    circumstances, we're relatively insulated from the worst effects of it.
    Good news is there some cheap ways to get started, especially on the highly (and globally) networked VHF/UHF bands, which is where our nets operate.

    Oh, I would love to know more about some cheap ways to get started! :-)

    ... 300 baud makes you wanna get out and shoot it.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Atroxi@VERT to Underminer on Sat Aug 8 12:00:00 2020
    Underminer wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Hey man, super glad you're fitting in and enjoying yourself. This is
    not meant to be a killjoy message in any respect, but just a heads up:

    You don't need to include the entirety of previos messages in your
    reply quoting. Try to just quote the relevant and needed parts to
    remind people what you're replying to; for those reading on the typical 80x24 terminal screen a wall of reply quote can get in the way of
    message flow a bit.

    Sometime's it's a bit of an art to pick the quote lines appropriately,
    but I'm sure you'll get the hang of it quickly :) ---

    I'm sorry! Yeah, it's quite a balance to not lose context and have a wall of text when the conversation has been going on for a while. I'll be more mindful from now on. :-)

    ... 300 baud makes you wanna get out and shoot it.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Atroxi@VERT to Dennisk on Sat Aug 8 12:05:00 2020
    Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Maybe it matters more for new users, the distro's defaults.

    Oh certainly, I think the defaults are really more for the new users at some point once you go deep into the GNU/Linux rabbit hole you'll eventually develop your own workflow which might not be similar to the distro's defaults.

    Red Hat or Fedora has something called a "kixstart" file or something
    like that, which would have all the config options for a new install,
    or most of them. Better than multiple spins. You could download the distro intaller, and then the config you want, then simply load the
    config you want at install.

    One spin, multiple outcomes.

    Oh, that's interesting. That's quite similar to what Guix is doing with their config.scm file on install. You can basically dictate how the system would install and configured, this includes all the user settings and such, in a simple file in the system. I even saw a very lean config file somewhere that installs nothing but the essentials. That might be something that would interest you.

    ... 300 baud makes you wanna get out and shoot it.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Atroxi@VERT to Moondog on Sat Aug 8 12:32:00 2020
    Moondog wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Atroxi to Dennisk on
    Fri Aug 07 2020 01:22 pm

    Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-

    I agree that I think people should not jam GNU/Linux to other people's throats by "getting them into using it". I think the operating system should speak for itself, for its features and its benefits for the people meaning to use it. Give them a reason to switch and it should be their choice in doing so. Though, I don't know, with people slowly being privacy aware and now cares about how and where their data is being used, GNU/Linux becomes more increasingly the sole choice for such users should that be the case, GNU/Linux will cease to be a niche operating system. Though I'd argue that it isn't the case anymore...? I've been seeing mass use of GNU/Linux systems in my university and some opt to using it because it interfaces well with our university stuff. Sure, I think the more minimal ones will always remain niche. Arch, Gentoo, Slackware and the likes will never achieve the same amount of popularity that Mint and Ubuntu experiences.

    Yeah, I think the problem with adoption's to do with inertia mostly, for people to adopt GNU/Linux there must be a functional, practical and tangible reason for them to do so. Something like deep, underlying systems such as the init system or linux subsystems are stuff that a normal person would not care about. They don't care whether their system boots 0.5 seconds slower because systemd is bloated or whatnot. Though, I'd argue that such questions have their place and that we shouldn't just fall into "meh, it is what it is" mentality. Save those questions for the developers not the users.

    I think the various systems, standards and frameworks that spring up in GNU/Linux is both a good and a bad thing. On one side it shows how active things are in the development side of things and gives any coming user the faith that GNU/Linux won't just be obsolete after a few decades despite not being taken care of by a single monolithic body. On the other side, it is what you mentioned: the amount of stuff presented also puts the user in a paradox of choice situation. Though personally, I think it's a good thing that there's a lot of choices because it's exactly the point of software freedom and that the ideal solution should be more around the "let's create a more consolidated distro" rather than shooting the whole development in the foot slightly by hampering developer freedom and homogenizing things (I prefer my xbps and portage over apt, thank you very much). :-)

    There is choice that matters, and choice that doesn't. That is an individual thing too. For me, the important choices are being able to use the GUI I like, being able to have the system look and act the way I want, backward compatibility and being able to keep existing workflows and capacities. I don't really care about choice of package managers, as long as it works, or choice of distros (as long as the distro doesn't limit me), or choice of installer defaults (you can always change the options).

    Yup, I agree. We shouldn't stife that individual choice which I think is central to how GNU/Linux works.


    ... Whatever happens, happens.

    Linux users are a diverse group with diverse interests. The friendly desktop movement is probably second to the linux server side. Ubuntu
    and Mint are most likely the leaders in the desktop development, and
    all the little Windows and OSX lookalikes depend on these bigger
    distros momentum.

    Yeah, I can see why that would be the case. As much as I want to think that most of the people running GNU/Linux as their desktops start with a minimal install it's just isn't the case and those distros at the forefront of GNU/Linux desktops would technically dictate what a GNU/Linux desktop would look like.

    ... 300 baud makes you wanna get out and shoot it.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Atroxi@VERT to Moondog on Sat Aug 8 12:37:00 2020
    Moondog wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Atroxi to Dennisk on
    Fri Aug 07 2020 01:35 pm

    Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Is there any real qualitative difference between them? I do need to switch away from Fedora on my laptop soon, as Fedora dropped 32 bit support. I'm thinking Debian. Someone raved about Mint, but I'm not sure what day-to-day difference there would be aside from the contents of the repository.

    In my limited experience distrohopping, most of the difference lies with how minimal stuff are post-install and the package manager that they use (... also the init system). For example, Arch, Debian, Gentoo and Void Linux all are quite minimal post-install, though there are DE options, which means that you have to install most of the programs yourself. Which is great for a tinkerer and customizability standpoint but would be a pain for someone who just wants a system that works. Also, Gentoo and Void Linux use OpenRC and runit respectively which some might care about.

    Package manager-wise, some argue that apt lacks features that pacman has, but you might have to look it up if it applies to your use case. Portage is source based and I really like fiddling with USE flags and stuff and the excitement of building software that are just slightly optimized for your hardware just don't lose their charm (0.5 sec faster boot time, aww yeah :-P). XBPS is much more leaner and simpler from a "user maintaing the system" standpoint.

    I find XBPS and runit to be just right for me. It's powerful, simple and fast.

    OK, that is what I thought it would be. I'm a tinkerer, so the "default" is only what lasts that 5 minutes until I switch to the GUI, shell and personalisation I want to use, and install the standard software I consider essential for my system. Anytime I've set up a new Linux machine (which isn't that often), that is the first thing I do. Last time I installed Linux on a netbook, I ended up just copying most of my config from my main machines home directy, used the same Window Manager (FVWM) with almost the same configuration, and installed the same software that I use day to day, or occasionally need.

    Yeah, if that's the case a more minimal install would be more apt for you. I had this period of time that minimal distros scared the crap out of me and I would rather just go through Ubuntu, install all my stuff there are remove a of the other unnecessary stuff that I didn't need. It's quite silly actually now that I think about it. But yeah, since you have your own workflow jive, would probably better if you have a minimal install since then you'll just b adding stuff into it.

    Maybe it matters more for new users, the distro's defaults.

    Oh certainly, I think the defaults are really more for the new users at some point once you go deep into the GNU/Linux rabbit hole you'll eventually deve your own workflow which might not be similar to the distro's defaults.


    ... Whatever happens, happens.

    There are times I would like to go the "linux from scratch" approach, however I doubt if something went seriously wrong or if I got too deep
    in it, I wouldn't finish the process. Although if things go smoothly,
    I would try it again to see if i could streamline the process (and
    learn even more)

    Oh man, I'm also tempted to do that as well but I guess I still don't have the balls (and the patience) to spend an afternoon (or even more) trying to diagnose issues when configuring and compiling everything manually as to compared to something like using portage. Even portage can be quite a challenge if you're not prepared for it, which I was certainly am when I first installed gentoo, haha! :-)

    ... 300 baud makes you wanna get out and shoot it.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Atroxi on Sat Aug 8 03:19:57 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Atroxi to Underminer on Sat Aug 08 2020 12:00 pm

    I'm sorry! Yeah, it's quite a balance to not lose context and have a wall of text when the conversation has been going on for a while. I'll be more mindful from now on. :-)

    Nothing to be sorry about, we were all new to this scene once. It just takes a slightly different mindset than email or web forums.
    ---
    Underminer
    The Undermine BBS - bbs.undermine.ca:423
    Fidonet: 1:342/17
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Undermine - bbs.undermine.ca:423
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Vk3jed on Sat Aug 8 21:41:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-

    On 08-07-20 20:39, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Which distro? Distro's update the included software, but some have
    older versions. Debian for example will usually hold older versions of software because they update theirs less frequently. I like Debian,
    but I found when I tried it the age of the software was occasionally a problem, especially with youtube-dl which I use a lot.

    Yes, Debian often has older versions, if you use stable. I installed
    my own Firefox on Mint, IIRC.

    A better option is to use a distro that keeps modern, such as Fedora.
    I use Fedora and the versions of software included is new enough to not
    be a problem.

    I found the rapid release cycle and planned obolescence of Fedora a
    pain, but it is a solid distro.

    I found that a pain in Fedora too, so much so, that at times I was looking at moving away to avoid having to update all the time.

    But I've gotten used to the updates, and the updates from version to version aren't that significant. It is almost like a rolling disto. So I stayed.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Atroxi on Sat Aug 8 21:44:00 2020
    Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Maybe it matters more for new users, the distro's defaults.

    Oh certainly, I think the defaults are really more for the new users at some point once you go deep into the GNU/Linux rabbit hole you'll eventually develop your own workflow which might not be similar to the distro's defaults.

    Red Hat or Fedora has something called a "kixstart" file or something
    like that, which would have all the config options for a new install,
    or most of them. Better than multiple spins. You could download the distro intaller, and then the config you want, then simply load the
    config you want at install.

    One spin, multiple outcomes.

    Oh, that's interesting. That's quite similar to what Guix is doing with their config.scm file on install. You can basically dictate how the
    system would install and configured, this includes all the user
    settings and such, in a simple file in the system. I even saw a very
    lean config file somewhere that installs nothing but the essentials.
    That might be something that would interest you.

    It's quite likely that its already been done, or thought of. I think it is a better solution than multiple spins, or spin-off distros. Simpler and less confusing.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Vk3jed on Sat Aug 8 22:14:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Gamgee <=-

    On 08-07-20 18:51, Gamgee wrote to Moondog <=-

    Re Linux from Scratch

    I've done it a couple of times, but for me at least, the end
    result is not really worth the effort expended to get there. It
    is a nice learning experience which helps you understand the
    "guts" of Linux, especially the boot process and compiling
    software.

    Learning is probably the only reason I'd do it. Maybe if we get a
    stage 4 lockdown here, I may have to amuse myself that way. :)

    If you are wanting to learn how to make a distro, it is useful. But if you want to learn Linux, and have time, I think it is much better to learn BASH scripting or better yet, the Unix toolset, awk, sed, cut, grep, and others, maybe groff as well. With this knowledge, you'd be able to create new and novel solutions. Or you can learn more customisation, editing existing scripts, or learning to configure FVWM.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to Gamgee on Sat Aug 8 16:46:28 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Gamgee to Moondog on Fri Aug 07 2020 06:51 pm

    There are times I would like to go the "linux from scratch"
    approach, however I doubt if something went seriously wrong or if
    I got too deep in it, I wouldn't finish the process. Although if
    things go smoothly, I would try it again to see if i could
    streamline the process (and learn even more)

    It's not real difficult - the instructions are pretty much
    step-by-step and all inclusive. Quite tedious after a while, and
    you end up with a bootable but not really useable system until you continue with adding everything you need (with BLFS for example).

    I've done it a couple of times, but for me at least, the end
    result is not really worth the effort expended to get there. It
    is a nice learning experience which helps you understand the
    "guts" of Linux, especially the boot process and compiling
    software.

    running Gentoo taught me more about Linux than any other distro ever did. Granted, back when I first started, I was bootstrapping with stage 1, and now it just installs a base system that you eventually recompile after modifying your use flags and tweaking your compiler settings.

    I currently have a gentoo install that's about 6 years old, it's gone through 2 different CPUs and 3 different motherboards. It still runs great.

    It's definitely frustrating though when you get upgrading conflicts, but luckilly the gentoo forums hold of wealth of information on solving just about any issue you run into.

    DaiTengu

    ... Extreme boredom serves to cure boredom.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to DaiTengu on Sat Aug 8 23:09:00 2020
    DaiTengu wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Gamgee to Moondog on Fri Aug 07 2020 06:51 pm

    There are times I would like to go the "linux from scratch"
    approach, however I doubt if something went seriously wrong or if
    I got too deep in it, I wouldn't finish the process. Although if
    things go smoothly, I would try it again to see if i could
    streamline the process (and learn even more)

    It's not real difficult - the instructions are pretty much
    step-by-step and all inclusive. Quite tedious after a while, and
    you end up with a bootable but not really useable system until you continue with adding everything you need (with BLFS for example).

    I've done it a couple of times, but for me at least, the end
    result is not really worth the effort expended to get there. It
    is a nice learning experience which helps you understand the
    "guts" of Linux, especially the boot process and compiling
    software.

    running Gentoo taught me more about Linux than any other distro
    ever did. Granted, back when I first started, I was bootstrapping
    with stage 1, and now it just installs a base system that you
    eventually recompile after modifying your use flags and tweaking
    your compiler settings.

    Yes, I have tried Gentoo a couple of times (long ago now), and
    liked it pretty well. I eventually settled on Slackware and have
    used it for years now, but Gentoo would be on my short-list of
    alternate distros should I ever have to switch.

    I currently have a gentoo install that's about 6 years old, it's
    gone through 2 different CPUs and 3 different motherboards. It
    still runs great.

    Nice. One of the joys of running Linux. It just........ works.

    It's definitely frustrating though when you get upgrading
    conflicts, but luckilly the gentoo forums hold of wealth of
    information on solving just about any issue you run into.

    Yes, they are well-regarded sources of info, even by others who
    don't use Gentoo. I have referred to those forums quite a few
    times over the years.

    Glad to hear there are still some who use it - it has lost favor
    compared to years ago when everything was new, but that doesn't
    mean it isn't good. I know that well, being a Slackware user.
    :-)


    ... Pros are those who do their jobs well, even when they don't feel like it. --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Atroxi on Sat Aug 8 17:27:00 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Atroxi to Moondog on Sat Aug 08 2020 12:37 pm


    Package manager-wise, some argue that apt lacks features that pacman has, but you might have to look it up if it applies to your use case Portage is source based and I really like fiddling with USE flags an stuff and the excitement of building software that are just slightly optimized for your hardware just don't lose their charm (0.5 sec fas boot time, aww yeah :-P). XBPS is much more leaner and simpler from "user maintaing the system" standpoint.

    I find XBPS and runit to be just right for me. It's powerful, simple and fast.

    OK, that is what I thought it would be. I'm a tinkerer, so the "default" is only what lasts that 5 minutes until I switch to the GU shell and personalisation I want to use, and install the standard software I consider essential for my system. Anytime I've set up a Linux machine (which isn't that often), that is the first thing I do Last time I installed Linux on a netbook, I ended up just copying mo of my config from my main machines home directy, used the same Windo Manager (FVWM) with almost the same configuration, and installed the same software that I use day to day, or occasionally need.

    Yeah, if that's the case a more minimal install would be more apt for you had this period of time that minimal distros scared the crap out of me an would rather just go through Ubuntu, install all my stuff there are remov of the other unnecessary stuff that I didn't need. It's quite silly actua now that I think about it. But yeah, since you have your own workflow jiv would probably better if you have a minimal install since then you'll jus adding stuff into it.

    Maybe it matters more for new users, the distro's defaults.

    Oh certainly, I think the defaults are really more for the new users at s point once you go deep into the GNU/Linux rabbit hole you'll eventually d your own workflow which might not be similar to the distro's defaults.


    ... Whatever happens, happens.

    There are times I would like to go the "linux from scratch" approach, however I doubt if something went seriously wrong or if I got too deep in it, I wouldn't finish the process. Although if things go smoothly, I would try it again to see if i could streamline the process (and learn even more)

    Oh man, I'm also tempted to do that as well but I guess I still don't have t balls (and the patience) to spend an afternoon (or even more) trying to diagnose issues when configuring and compiling everything manually as to compared to something like using portage. Even portage can be quite a challe if you're not prepared for it, which I was certainly am when I first install gentoo, haha! :-)

    ... 300 baud makes you wanna get out and shoot it.

    I figure any issues I would have would be typing and spelling related


    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Dennisk on Sun Aug 9 18:52:00 2020
    On 08-08-20 21:41, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    I found that a pain in Fedora too, so much so, that at times I was
    looking at moving away to avoid having to update all the time.

    But I've gotten used to the updates, and the updates from version to version aren't that significant. It is almost like a rolling disto.
    So I stayed.

    Interesting, how do you manage that? That could be a useful way to treat Fedora.


    ... No, no, nurse! I said SLIP off his SPECTACLES!!
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Dennisk on Sun Aug 9 18:56:00 2020
    On 08-08-20 22:14, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    If you are wanting to learn how to make a distro, it is useful. But if you want to learn Linux, and have time, I think it is much better to
    learn BASH scripting or better yet, the Unix toolset, awk, sed, cut,
    grep, and others, maybe groff as well. With this knowledge, you'd be
    able to create new and novel solutions. Or you can learn more

    Yes, that's the direction I ended up going myself. :)

    customisation, editing existing scripts, or learning to configure FVWM.

    All good things to learn.


    ... The answer is "maybe" ... and that's semi-final
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Vk3jed on Sun Aug 9 22:01:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-

    On 08-08-20 21:41, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    I found that a pain in Fedora too, so much so, that at times I was
    looking at moving away to avoid having to update all the time.

    But I've gotten used to the updates, and the updates from version to version aren't that significant. It is almost like a rolling disto.
    So I stayed.

    Interesting, how do you manage that? That could be a useful way to
    treat Fedora.

    Fedora release a major release version every 6 months or so. I usually skip a version, so I update once a year, or so. So I might go from 29 to 31 to 33. Sometimes I skip, sometimes I don't.

    But because the updates are frequent, there are fewer changes between them. Most of the time, I don't really notice a difference because my system is highly customised. There is only 6 months between a release, so Fedora 31 is only 6 months or so ahead of Fedora 30, and Fedora 30 gets updated. That means when you update, you aren't jumping that far forward.

    Whereas Debian, because its more stable, you really notice the difference between debian 9 and 10.

    My desktop was a Fedora 17 or so install, that has been continuously updated to Fedora 31, and due for one now. Most of the time, the update just means minor updates to versions. KDE 4 to KDE 5 was the only "breaking" change, and that was years ago.


    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Andeddu on Wed Aug 5 06:56:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to Arelor <=-

    I absolutely maintain that iOS and Android are killing Windows. I am
    not sure if Windows are as dominant as they used to be in the corporate world, but they're taking losses everywhere else. Their Windows Phone
    OS bombed hard, and I am glad of it.

    The corporate world is hardcore Intel, Windows and Azure and
    Microsoft 365. They're doing just fine.

    ... If you have a rotary phone, please press 1 now.
    --- MultiMail/XT v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ realitycheckBBS -- http://realitycheckBBS.org
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Underminer on Wed Aug 5 08:33:00 2020
    Underminer wrote to Andeddu <=-

    Windows is stable. That's a good one. It's better than previous
    offerings in some cases, but much much worse in others, for one You
    still measure stable uptime on most Windows systems in hours, sometimes days, past that you still start to get increasingly weird problems.

    I haven't had to schedule production maintenance windows around a reboot
    schedule in 10 years.

    That's fine for playing games, which I understand is your priority, but when you start dealing with production or productivity environments
    it's laughably horrible.

    Nope, it works.

    Then there's the frequency with which auto
    updates, which you have very very little control over, have a bad
    tendency to either require and auto reboot systems, or break critical functionality until a reboot - and they can't even manage to leave user settings alone without wiping them out half the time.

    In corporate environments you're testing patches and pushing them out
    using WSUS or a similar management platform - especially on your
    server environment. Or, you've paid for a platform like Ivanti, which
    manages office, windows and 3rd party patches with one platform.

    Once again, fine
    for gaming, but the frequency with which I get frantic calls from
    clients who have had a mission critical system or functionality break during work hours because of an unavoidable update or other random
    event is higher than it has been since Vista.

    If you're on a domain, I could imagine a SMB IT Manager setting up
    via group policy a group of test machines to receive patches first,
    then set the rest of the systems to download only. As an IT manager,
    you patch on Tuesday, test on Wednesday, and tell everyone to patch
    on Thursday.

    I'd claim that those issues plague SMBs more than enterprise, and
    Microsoft has a gap there. They need to look at a solution for small
    businesses to better manage their patching, but I could imagine they
    look at it as it's better to crash a few boxes than to let a few
    million miss a critical patch.

    Now, I could imagine them pushing Azure cloud services as a solution
    instead of patch management. It's a shame, I made a good deal of
    money selling Small Business Server back in the 2000s. It's a nice
    little package for small offices.




    ... FOR SYSOP USE ONLY - Do not write below this line.
    --- MultiMail/XT v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ realitycheckBBS -- http://realitycheckBBS.org
  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to Gamgee on Sun Aug 9 14:53:48 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Gamgee to DaiTengu on Sat Aug 08 2020 11:09 pm

    I currently have a gentoo install that's about 6 years old, it's
    gone through 2 different CPUs and 3 different motherboards. It
    still runs great.

    Nice. One of the joys of running Linux. It just........ works.

    Most of the time. I remember trying to install Arch once a few years back on a laptop, and that just didn't go well for me.

    It's definitely frustrating though when you get upgrading
    conflicts, but luckilly the gentoo forums hold of wealth of
    information on solving just about any issue you run into.

    Yes, they are well-regarded sources of info, even by others who
    don't use Gentoo. I have referred to those forums quite a few
    times over the years.

    Glad to hear there are still some who use it - it has lost favor
    compared to years ago when everything was new, but that doesn't
    mean it isn't good. I know that well, being a Slackware user.

    Slackware was my first distro back in the mid 90's. I remember starting a kernel compile, and having to let it run overnight.


    Slackware is the base system that my NAS runs on, using a system called "UnRAID". So I still get to tinker with it from time to time. :)

    DaiTengu

    ... When in doubt, predict that the trend will continue.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun Aug 9 20:54:14 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Andeddu on Wed Aug 05 2020 06:56 am

    The corporate world is hardcore Intel, Windows and Azure and
    Microsoft 365. They're doing just fine.

    Microsoft's Windows is the default. When the average Joe purchases a computer, it's pre-installed with Windows. Whether they switch to Linux or another OS is hardly relevant as Microsoft have made their money. I am not aware of too many folk who build their own machines with the intent of bypassing the requirement of a Windows license.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to poindexter FORTRAN on Mon Aug 10 09:29:00 2020
    poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Underminer <=-

    Underminer wrote to Andeddu <=-

    Windows is stable. That's a good one. It's better than previous
    offerings in some cases, but much much worse in others, for one You
    still measure stable uptime on most Windows systems in hours, sometimes days, past that you still start to get increasingly weird problems.

    I haven't had to schedule production maintenance windows around a
    reboot
    schedule in 10 years.

    That's fine for playing games, which I understand is your priority, but when you start dealing with production or productivity environments
    it's laughably horrible.

    Nope, it works.

    Then there's the frequency with which auto
    updates, which you have very very little control over, have a bad
    tendency to either require and auto reboot systems, or break critical functionality until a reboot - and they can't even manage to leave user settings alone without wiping them out half the time.

    In corporate environments you're testing patches and pushing them out
    using WSUS or a similar management platform - especially on your
    server environment. Or, you've paid for a platform like Ivanti, which
    manages office, windows and 3rd party patches with one platform.

    Once again, fine
    for gaming, but the frequency with which I get frantic calls from
    clients who have had a mission critical system or functionality break during work hours because of an unavoidable update or other random
    event is higher than it has been since Vista.

    If you're on a domain, I could imagine a SMB IT Manager setting up
    via group policy a group of test machines to receive patches first,
    then set the rest of the systems to download only. As an IT manager,
    you patch on Tuesday, test on Wednesday, and tell everyone to patch
    on Thursday.

    I'd claim that those issues plague SMBs more than enterprise, and
    Microsoft has a gap there. They need to look at a solution for small
    businesses to better manage their patching, but I could imagine they
    look at it as it's better to crash a few boxes than to let a few
    million miss a critical patch.

    Now, I could imagine them pushing Azure cloud services as a solution
    instead of patch management. It's a shame, I made a good deal of
    money selling Small Business Server back in the 2000s. It's a nice
    little package for small offices.

    I use Windows 10 at work, company supplied machine, and I've never seen an update happen. They must happen, because occasionally the software change slightly, but it seems to be in the background.


    ... Heisenberg may have slept here.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun Aug 9 15:25:35 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Underminer on Wed Aug 05 2020 08:33 am

    Nope, it works.

    No, it really really doesn't.

    The fact that it's possible to work around the problems and mitigate them doesn't make the core experience stable or good. In environments where the financial and time resources are there, I too have mitigated the issues; that doesn't change that Windows itself, and most of the whole ecosystem is a hacked and patched together mess.

    Like I say, if you just want to play games fine, it will work well enough for that. If you need to do anything resembling real work you either need to do a lot of self learning and setup, or be willing to spend $$ to have someone else do it for you.

    Meanwhile, you take a system running a stable distro of Linux and it will run just as stable and happy as a stand alone system, part of a network, or anything else you want to do with it.

    Dealing with Windows on an idividual or smb basis makes me want to boot things out the window far too often.
    ---
    Underminer
    The Undermine BBS - bbs.undermine.ca:423
    Fidonet: 1:342/17
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Undermine - bbs.undermine.ca:423
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dennisk on Sun Aug 9 21:08:47 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Dennisk to poindexter FORTRAN on Mon Aug 10 2020 09:29 am

    I use Windows 10 at work, company supplied machine, and I've never seen an update happen. They must happen, because occasionally the software change slightly, but it seems to be in the background.



    it's overnight. and it's very subtle.
    most of your programs will be re-opened.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Underminer on Sun Aug 9 21:09:58 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Underminer to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun Aug 09 2020 03:25 pm

    Like I say, if you just want to play games fine, it will work well enough for that. If you need to do anything resembling real work you either need to do a lot of self learning and setup, or be willing to spend $$ to have someone else do it for you.

    Meanwhile, you take a system running a stable distro of Linux and it will run just as stable and happy as a stand alone system, part of a network, or anything else you want to do with it.

    Dealing with Windows on an idividual or smb basis makes me want to boot things out the window far too often.

    why is windows so hard for you? they designed it so even idiots wont have problems with it.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to MRO on Sun Aug 9 22:29:26 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: MRO to Underminer on Sun Aug 09 2020 09:09 pm

    why is windows so hard for you? they designed it so even idiots wont have problems with it. ---

    It's not "hard," it's needlessly aggravating. It's like... imagine if you had a car where you had to walk around and unlock all the doors before any would open, and 90% of the cars on the market worked like that, then you get a car that has remote start and try to explain to people that the "normal" way of doing things is broken and there's a much better system out there, but all you get back is that walking around to all 4 doors and putting your key in works just fine, and they ask why it's so hard for you.... it isn't, but it's stupid.
    ---
    Underminer
    The Undermine BBS - bbs.undermine.ca:423
    Fidonet: 1:342/17
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Undermine - bbs.undermine.ca:423
  • From paulie420@VERT/BEERS20 to DaiTengu on Sun Aug 9 22:58:00 2020
    Nice. One of the joys of running Linux. It just........ works.
    Most of the time. I remember trying to install Arch once a few years back on a laptop, and that just didn't go well for me.

    If you ever are wanting Arch again, google ARCHFI and use that script to do
    the installation... it guides you thru install; you don't have to know the inner workings of linux to get wifi and other essentials going.

    However, I suggest that people use Archfi once and then go back and learn the linuxy stuff... its great knowledge to have, if you ever have to dig in on other systems some day.

    I can get around a linux box pretty good, even if theres no decent GUI
    systems.



    |07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
    |08.........
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Dennisk on Mon Aug 10 16:28:00 2020
    On 08-09-20 22:01, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    My desktop was a Fedora 17 or so install, that has been continuously updated to Fedora 31, and due for one now. Most of the time, the
    update just means minor updates to versions. KDE 4 to KDE 5 was the
    only "breaking" change, and that was years ago.

    Sounds good, but the key detail is what's the process for such updating to create the effective "rolling distro"?


    ... "Aw, mom, you act like I'm not even wearing a bungee cord!"
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Hatton@VERT/THRCORN to Dennisk on Mon Aug 10 03:44:04 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Dennisk to poindexter FORTRAN on Mon Aug 10 2020 09:29 am

    I use Windows 10 at work, company supplied machine, and I've never seen an update happen. They must happen, because occasionally the software change slightly, but it seems to be in the background.

    Windows updates often run on their own unless your company has set up an Update Server. Those give your Systems Administrator (or team) the ability to screen and install updates based on their schedule instead of Redmond's.

    73 de NY5I
    Hatton

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Three Corners and Beyond! http://3corners.us
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to MRO on Mon Aug 10 20:44:00 2020
    MRO wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Dennisk to poindexter FORTRAN on Mon Aug 10 2020 09:29 am

    I use Windows 10 at work, company supplied machine, and I've never seen an update happen. They must happen, because occasionally the software change slightly, but it seems to be in the background.


    I shut down my machine at the end of the day. Must be during the day. Or maybe Windows doesn't get updates at all.


    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Vk3jed on Mon Aug 10 20:46:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-

    On 08-09-20 22:01, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    My desktop was a Fedora 17 or so install, that has been continuously updated to Fedora 31, and due for one now. Most of the time, the
    update just means minor updates to versions. KDE 4 to KDE 5 was the
    only "breaking" change, and that was years ago.

    Sounds good, but the key detail is what's the process for such updating
    to create the effective "rolling distro"?

    I think the key detail is that the difference between an up to date Fedora 31, and the Fedora 32 release, is most of the time not that significant. So even though you still make the "leap" from Fedora 31 to 32 then to 33, etc, that "leap" is actually a small step.



    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to MRO on Mon Aug 10 20:50:00 2020
    MRO wrote to Underminer <=-

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Underminer to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun Aug 09 2020 03:25 pm

    Like I say, if you just want to play games fine, it will work well enough for that. If you need to do anything resembling real work you either need to do a lot of self learning and setup, or be willing to spend $$ to have someone else do it for you.

    Meanwhile, you take a system running a stable distro of Linux and it will run just as stable and happy as a stand alone system, part of a network, or anything else you want to do with it.

    Dealing with Windows on an idividual or smb basis makes me want to boot things out the window far too often.

    why is windows so hard for you? they designed it so even idiots wont
    have problems with it. ---

    Idiots may not have problems with it, but anyone who isn't one, will.


    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Atroxi@VERT to Dennisk on Sun Aug 9 21:02:00 2020
    Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Maybe it matters more for new users, the distro's defaults.

    Oh certainly, I think the defaults are really more for the new users at some point once you go deep into the GNU/Linux rabbit hole you'll eventually develop your own workflow which might not be similar to the distro's defaults.

    Red Hat or Fedora has something called a "kixstart" file or something
    like that, which would have all the config options for a new install,
    or most of them. Better than multiple spins. You could download the distro intaller, and then the config you want, then simply load the
    config you want at install.

    One spin, multiple outcomes.

    Oh, that's interesting. That's quite similar to what Guix is doing with their config.scm file on install. You can basically dictate how the
    system would install and configured, this includes all the user
    settings and such, in a simple file in the system. I even saw a very
    lean config file somewhere that installs nothing but the essentials.
    That might be something that would interest you.

    It's quite likely that its already been done, or thought of. I think
    it is a better solution than multiple spins, or spin-off distros.
    Simpler and less confusing.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    = Synchronet = End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com

    Yup, I agree.

    ... Silence cannot be misquoted.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to DaiTengu on Mon Aug 10 07:38:18 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: DaiTengu to Gamgee on Sun Aug 09 2020 02:53 pm

    Slackware was my first distro back in the mid 90's. I remember starting a kernel compile, and having to let it run overnig


    Slackware is the base system that my NAS runs on, using a system called "UnRAID". So I still get to tinker with it from time
    time. :)

    I am also an Slacker here. I really like the distribution. It is really designed to management tools don't block your way. It
    reminds me so much of BSD.

    Sadly,Slackware has been losing ground to OpenBSD in my networks since Patrick has such bad communication issues. The current
    -stable release of Slackware is getting a bit outdated for some tasks and I find myself upgrading those boxes to OpenBSD
    -release. Slackware development is very active - changelogs scrolling blazing fast - but we don't get a picture of that the
    release goals are and what we can expect.

    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Andeddu on Mon Aug 10 07:49:14 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Andeddu to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun Aug 09 2020 08:54 pm

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Andeddu on Wed Aug 05 2020 06:56 am

    The corporate world is hardcore Intel, Windows and Azure and
    Microsoft 365. They're doing just fine.

    Microsoft's Windows is the default. When the average Joe purchases a computer, it's pre-installed with Windows. Whether they
    switch to Linux or another OS is hardly relevant as Microsoft have made their money. I am not aware of too many folk who bui
    their own machines with the intent of bypassing the requirement of a Windows license.


    Microsoft does not make the bulk of their money from selling you a software license. They don't give a damn if you pirate the
    hell out of it. They want you to use Microsoft Office, pirated or not, because that way they ensure the dominant document
    format in the IT ecosystem is one they control. Then they can charge multiple kilobucks to enterprise customers if they want to
    do fancy stuff with that format.

    Or patent troll you, or whatever.

    I don't build my own machines with the intention of screwing Microsoft, but I certainly build them from used components or buy
    used ones because that is so much more cost effective. Running Linux or OpenBSD on top of them certainly prevents a MS Windows
    sale.

    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to MRO on Mon Aug 10 09:19:13 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: MRO to Underminer on Sun Aug 09 2020 09:09 pm

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Underminer to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun Aug 09 2020 03:25 pm

    Like I say, if you just want to play games fine, it will work well enough for that. If you need to do anything resembli
    real work you either need to do a lot of self learning and setup, or be willing to spend $$ to have someone else do it
    you.

    Meanwhile, you take a system running a stable distro of Linux and it will run just as stable and happy as a stand alone
    system, part of a network, or anything else you want to do with it.

    Dealing with Windows on an idividual or smb basis makes me want to boot things out the window far too often.

    why is windows so hard for you? they designed it so even idiots wont have problems with it.

    Make a program that a fool could use, and only a fool will want to use it.

    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Arelor on Mon Aug 10 18:59:20 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Arelor to Andeddu on Mon Aug 10 2020 07:49 am

    Microsoft does not make the bulk of their money from selling you a software license. They don't give a damn if you pirate the
    hell out of it. They want you to use Microsoft Office, pirated or not, because that way they ensure the dominant document
    format in the IT ecosystem is one they control. Then they can charge multiple kilobucks to enterprise customers if they want to
    do fancy stuff with that format.

    Or patent troll you, or whatever.

    I don't build my own machines with the intention of screwing Microsoft, but I certainly build them from used components or buy
    used ones because that is so much more cost effective. Running Linux or OpenBSD on top of them certainly prevents a MS Windows
    sale.

    Yeah, I can see that. I don't know what proportion of their profits come from the home computer sector, but it'll be a tiny fraction compared to the business sector.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Warpslide@VERT/NRBBS to Hatton on Mon Aug 10 20:51:00 2020
    On 10 Aug 2020, Hatton said the following...

    Windows updates often run on their own unless your company has set up an U Server. Those give your Systems Administrator (or team) the ability to scr d install updates based on their schedule instead of Redmond's.

    For us the biggest advantage (other than being able to control what gets updated when) is having one server reaching out to the internet to download
    the updates. Then all of our servers & workstations can download from that
    one server, saving on bandwidth and speeding up installations.

    Jay

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/06 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Northern Realms BBS | bbs.nrbbs.net | Binbrook, ON
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Underminer on Mon Aug 10 21:12:23 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Underminer to MRO on Sun Aug 09 2020 10:29 pm

    why is windows so hard for you? they designed it so even idiots wont
    have problems with it. ---

    It's not "hard," it's needlessly aggravating. It's like... imagine if you had a car where you had to walk around and unlock all the doors before any would open, and 90% of the cars on the market worked like that, then you get a car that has remote start and try to explain to people that the "normal" way of doing things is broken and there's a much better system out there, but all you get back is that walking around to all 4 doors and putting your key in works just fine, and they ask why it's so hard for you.... it isn't, but it's stupid.


    i just use it to run my programs. i dont battle with it. i have a network setup with 6 computers, some of them linux.

    i use windows and linux in harmony. i dont really see why you get aggrivated by windows.

    maybe there are some 3rd party programs you could use to tweak it to your liking.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dennisk on Mon Aug 10 21:13:04 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Dennisk to MRO on Mon Aug 10 2020 08:44 pm

    MRO wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Dennisk to poindexter FORTRAN on Mon Aug 10 2020 09:29 am

    I use Windows 10 at work, company supplied machine, and I've never
    seen an update happen. They must happen, because occasionally the
    software change slightly, but it seems to be in the background.


    I shut down my machine at the end of the day. Must be during the day. Or maybe Windows doesn't get updates at all.


    or so you THINK!
    maybe it turns itself on and then turns off again
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dennisk on Mon Aug 10 21:13:57 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Dennisk to MRO on Mon Aug 10 2020 08:50 pm

    boot things out the window far too often.

    why is windows so hard for you? they designed it so even idiots wont
    have problems with it. ---

    Idiots may not have problems with it, but anyone who isn't one, will.


    if someone is smart enough, they will be smart enough not to have problems.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Andeddu on Mon Aug 10 18:35:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    Microsoft's Windows is the default. When the average Joe purchases a computer, it's pre-installed with Windows. Whether they switch to Linux
    or another OS is hardly relevant as Microsoft have made their money. I
    am not aware of too many folk who build their own machines with the
    intent of bypassing the requirement of a Windows license.

    Back in the day, people used to request a Windows refund from
    Microsoft, it made the news back in the '90s.


    ... Be extravagant
    --- MultiMail/XT v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ realitycheckBBS -- http://realitycheckBBS.org
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Arelor on Mon Aug 10 21:32:45 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Arelor to MRO on Mon Aug 10 2020 09:19 am


    why is windows so hard for you? they designed it so even idiots wont
    have problems with it.

    Make a program that a fool could use, and only a fool will want to use it.

    guess i'm a fool. but i have no problems :D
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Hatton@VERT/THRCORN to Warpslide on Tue Aug 11 01:28:04 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Warpslide to Hatton on Mon Aug 10 2020 08:51 pm

    For us the biggest advantage (other than being able to control what gets updated when) is having one server reaching out to the internet to download the updates. Then all of our servers & workstations can download from that one server, saving on bandwidth and speeding up installations.

    Yeah, there is that aspect as well. Given bandwidth and scheduling options that doesn't always have an impact but it's a plus regardless

    73 de NY5I
    Hatton

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Three Corners and Beyond! http://3corners.us
  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to MRO on Mon Aug 10 21:10:29 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: MRO to Underminer on Mon Aug 10 2020 09:12 pm

    i use windows and linux in harmony. i dont really see why you get aggrivated by windows.

    I deal with and support this junk all day, so I have a very low tolerance left for annoyances with it for my own usage. Likewise, decades of deskside support, depot work, and IT consulting have bombarded me with the multitude of really stupid ways Windows environments can fail. Linux isn't immune to that, but I find it easier to avoid. If you prefer Windows, by all means use it.

    I've managed to get rid of all Windows systems on my personal and business networks except for one remaining exchange mailbox server, and while it admittedly only needs attention and reboot every few months, the postfix/amavis/dovecot system two feet from it last needed rebooting some number of YEARS ago, even with Kernel updates along the way. Once again, if you prefer Windows, fine, just don't claim it's similarly stable - there's a world of difference.

    But the big reason is that while I can make Linux conform to my desired workflow, I have to adjust my workflow to conform to Microsoft's way of doing things in Windows. That's fundamentally backwards to my mind. Once again, if you prefer the default flow, or your workflow doesn't benefit from alterations, cool be happy in your choice. But there's those of us for whom the default is restrictive and sometimes borderline oppressive. Hell, the ease of automation with bash and cron vs powershell and task scheduler is a prime example for some.

    maybe there are some 3rd party programs you could use to tweak it to your liking. ---

    Absolutely. The 3rd party program I prefer most is called Linux ;)
    ---
    Underminer
    The Undermine BBS - bbs.undermine.ca:423
    Fidonet: 1:342/17
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Undermine - bbs.undermine.ca:423
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to MRO on Tue Aug 11 21:44:00 2020
    MRO wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Dennisk to MRO on Mon Aug 10 2020 08:50 pm

    boot things out the window far too often.

    why is windows so hard for you? they designed it so even idiots wont
    have problems with it. ---

    Idiots may not have problems with it, but anyone who isn't one, will.


    if someone is smart enough, they will be smart enough not to have problems. ---

    I don't think it works quite like that. Some people are too smart, and end up creating problems they didn't need to.


    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Underminer on Tue Aug 11 12:42:59 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Underminer to MRO on Mon Aug 10 2020 09:10 pm


    i use windows and linux in harmony. i dont really see why you get
    aggrivated by windows.

    I deal with and support this junk all day, so I have a very low tolerance left for annoyances with it for my own usage. Likewise, decades of deskside support, depot work, and IT consulting have bombarded me with the multitude of really stupid ways Windows environments can fail. Linux isn't immune to that, but I find it easier to avoid. If you prefer Windows, by all means use it.


    well i consider it a tool. and i control the tool, i dont let it control me. i've used windows and linux for a long time. i prefer linux for servers, and i prefer windows for desktop. i use my own custom scripts and *nix style programs in windows, so i'm not really using the default.

    anyways, i think windows 10 is great for most people. they really have done a great job with this one.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dennisk on Tue Aug 11 12:43:33 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Dennisk to MRO on Tue Aug 11 2020 09:44 pm


    if someone is smart enough, they will be smart enough not to have
    problems. ---

    I don't think it works quite like that. Some people are too smart, and end up creating problems they didn't need to.


    oh yeah, we have that at my workplace. they are so smart they get distracted easily and arent productive.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to poindexter FORTRAN on Tue Aug 11 13:51:00 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Andeddu on Mon Aug 10 2020 06:35 pm

    Andeddu wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    Microsoft's Windows is the default. When the average Joe purchases a computer, it's pre-installed with Windows. Whether they switch to Linux or another OS is hardly relevant as Microsoft have made their money. I am not aware of too many folk who build their own machines with the intent of bypassing the requirement of a Windows license.

    Back in the day, people used to request a Windows refund from
    Microsoft, it made the news back in the '90s.


    ... Be extravagant

    I'm not sure if Dell still does it, but through their small and large
    business account system you can order equipment without an OS. They say they cannot ship without an OS, so they ship along a CD of FreeDOS. A place I use to work at received some Xeros wide format printers for printing E sized bluprints, and the controller / rip server for the scanner and printer was a low profile mini-tower with a touch panel interface and a fancy interface
    card for the printer and scanner. The machines shipped with FreeDOS, and the Xerox XES tech loaded all the CD's and activated the licenses for all the features. The only time a monitor was needed was during setup, and the first thing the tech did was install the generic system image built on linux, then installed all the hardware specific drivers from another CD. Once finished
    he changed some settings in a .conf file and the machine booted up to the Pritner's interface program sized for the smal LCD touch display. The rest could be done through the admin interface on thge tiny display.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to poindexter FORTRAN on Tue Aug 11 17:13:47 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Andeddu on Mon Aug 10 2020 06:35 pm

    Back in the day, people used to request a Windows refund from
    Microsoft, it made the news back in the '90s.

    Do you know if they were successful in obtaining a refund? I reckon it's a hard one to argue as they'd have purchased the computer with Window's pre-installed... surely that's an admission that they were happy with the transaction at the time?

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Andeddu on Tue Aug 11 16:26:13 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Andeddu to poindexter FORTRAN on Tue Aug 11 2020 05:13 pm

    Do you know if they were successful in obtaining a refund? I reckon it's a hard one to argue as they'd have purchased the computer with Window's pre-installed... surely that's an admission that they were happy with the transaction at the time?

    The argument was based on the MS TOS that stated you could get a refund. However Microsoft required the OEM Vendors to provide the refund, so nobody received one from Microsoft. It did however do a good job at promoting Free Software concerns.
    ---
    Underminer
    The Undermine BBS - bbs.undermine.ca:423
    Fidonet: 1:342/17
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Undermine - bbs.undermine.ca:423
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Andeddu on Wed Aug 12 02:54:22 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Andeddu to poindexter FORTRAN on Tue Aug 11 2020 05:13 pm

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Andeddu on Mon Aug 10 2020 06:35 pm

    Back in the day, people used to request a Windows refund from
    Microsoft, it made the news back in the '90s.

    Do you know if they were successful in obtaining a refund? I reckon it's a hard one to argue as they'd have purchased the computer with Window's pre-installed... sure
    that's an admission that they were happy with the transaction at the time?


    Some people was successful.

    This lead to Microsoft changing their EULA screen. Before the refunding claims, their EULA screen allowed you to reject the Windows license on first boot/install, which
    prevented you from using Windows. Purchasers would film themselves clicking on the "I don't agree" button and using it as a graphical evidence that thei didn't agree
    with the EULA after reading - because you know, you don't get to read the EULA before you purchase the computer - and claim for the refund.

    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Dennisk on Wed Aug 12 17:32:00 2020
    On 08-10-20 20:46, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    I think the key detail is that the difference between an up to date
    Fedora 31, and the Fedora 32 release, is most of the time not that significant. So even though you still make the "leap" from Fedora 31
    to 32 then to 33, etc, that "leap" is actually a small step.

    That's not a helpful practical detail, just a statement of what appears to be fact. I'm more interested in the process used. I know how Debian is upgraded, and I don't know what other distros can be successfully upgraded in a similar way.


    ... It's best to be judged by twelve than carried by six.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Vk3jed on Wed Aug 12 21:25:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-

    On 08-10-20 20:46, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    I think the key detail is that the difference between an up to date
    Fedora 31, and the Fedora 32 release, is most of the time not that significant. So even though you still make the "leap" from Fedora 31
    to 32 then to 33, etc, that "leap" is actually a small step.

    That's not a helpful practical detail, just a statement of what appears
    to be fact. I'm more interested in the process used. I know how
    Debian is upgraded, and I don't know what other distros can be successfully upgraded in a similar way.

    Fedora is updated in a very similar way to Debian. DNF is Fedora's equivalent of APT. You use DNF to do a system upgrade, by passing a system-upgrade flag and the version you want to upgrade to.

    In essense, its

    dnf system-upgrade download --releasever=32
    sudo dnf system-upgrade reboot

    The first downloads the packages, then the system reboots and updates the packages.

    It is very similar to a regular update, except for the package installation happening after a reboot (and before you can login). I've updated Debian from one release to another, and the process is very similar. If I recall correctly, Debian doesn't lock the user out while the packages are update, but that is a minor thing for me.


    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Andeddu on Wed Aug 12 09:35:00 2020
    Andeddu wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    Do you know if they were successful in obtaining a refund? I reckon
    it's a hard one to argue as they'd have purchased the computer with Window's pre-installed... surely that's an admission that they were
    happy with the transaction at the time?

    I'm pretty sure that their angle was that they didn't agree to the
    clickwrap agreement and asked for a refund. It worked, but there were
    a lot of hoops.



    ... Emphasize differences
    --- MultiMail/XT v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ realitycheckBBS -- http://realitycheckBBS.org
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Underminer on Wed Aug 12 17:10:26 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Underminer to Andeddu on Tue Aug 11 2020 04:26 pm

    The argument was based on the MS TOS that stated you could get a refund. However Microsoft required the OEM Vendors to provide the refund, so nobody received one from Microsoft. It did however do a good job at promoting Free Software concerns.

    Great to hear. I may not be the biggest critic of Microsoft but I am an advocate of consumer rights.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Andeddu on Wed Aug 12 21:34:18 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Andeddu to poindexter FORTRAN on Tue Aug 11 2020 05:13 pm

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Andeddu on Mon Aug 10 2020 06:35 pm

    Back in the day, people used to request a Windows refund from
    Microsoft, it made the news back in the '90s.

    Do you know if they were successful in obtaining a refund? I reckon it's a hard one to argue as they'd have purchased the computer with Window's pre-installed... surely that's an admission that they were happy with the transaction at the time?


    take a wild guess. the answer is nope
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Dennisk on Thu Aug 13 20:11:00 2020
    On 08-12-20 21:25, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Fedora is updated in a very similar way to Debian. DNF is Fedora's equivalent of APT. You use DNF to do a system upgrade, by passing a system-upgrade flag and the version you want to upgrade to.

    Oh, OK, so they've gone away from YUM? Not sure I like the sound of "DNF", in my game it means "Did Not Finish". ;)

    Anyway, that makes sense, and that would make Fedora a more interesting proposition.


    ... Insufficient facts always invite danger. Spock, stardate 3141.9.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Atroxi@VERT to Dennisk on Thu Aug 13 20:27:00 2020
    Dennisk wrote to MRO <=-

    MRO wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Dennisk to MRO on Mon Aug 10 2020 08:50 pm

    boot things out the window far too often.

    why is windows so hard for you? they designed it so even idiots wont
    have problems with it. ---

    Idiots may not have problems with it, but anyone who isn't one, will.


    if someone is smart enough, they will be smart enough not to have problems. ---

    I don't think it works quite like that. Some people are too smart, and end up creating problems they didn't need to.

    Yeah, I remember years ago when I really wanted to customize the crap out of the Windows 7 box, with all those custom aero stuff and aesthetic stuff that only a nerd teenager would care about. I went into a dive of modifying system files to the point of breaking my system just because I wanted to change the way it works. Then, I found GNU/Linux and it blew my mind how I can actually build a custom system from the ground up instead of stripping one away and making it custom (though still not quite).

    ... Are you happy?
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Vk3jed on Fri Aug 14 09:49:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-

    On 08-12-20 21:25, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Fedora is updated in a very similar way to Debian. DNF is Fedora's equivalent of APT. You use DNF to do a system upgrade, by passing a system-upgrade flag and the version you want to upgrade to.

    Oh, OK, so they've gone away from YUM? Not sure I like the sound of "DNF", in my game it means "Did Not Finish". ;)

    Anyway, that makes sense, and that would make Fedora a more interesting proposition.

    Yes, they moved away from Yum years ago. IIRC, DNF is native code, Yum was python, so DNF is a bit faster. DNF was pretty much a drop in replacement for Yum.

    I only use Fedora because my first distro was a Red Hat based one (Definite Linux 7.0) , then I moved to Red Hat (I think 6.2? 7.0?). I stuck with what I know, and Fedora has the packages that I'm used to having installed on my system.

    ... What is mind? No matter! What is matter? Never mind! - Homer S.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Atroxi on Fri Aug 14 10:11:00 2020
    Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Dennisk wrote to MRO <=-

    MRO wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Dennisk to MRO on Mon Aug 10 2020 08:50 pm

    boot things out the window far too often.

    why is windows so hard for you? they designed it so even idiots wont
    have problems with it. ---

    Idiots may not have problems with it, but anyone who isn't one, will.


    if someone is smart enough, they will be smart enough not to have problems. ---

    I don't think it works quite like that. Some people are too smart, and end up creating problems they didn't need to.

    Yeah, I remember years ago when I really wanted to customize the crap
    out of the Windows 7 box, with all those custom aero stuff and
    aesthetic stuff that only a nerd teenager would care about. I went into
    a dive of modifying system files to the point of breaking my system
    just because I wanted to change the way it works. Then, I found
    GNU/Linux and it blew my mind how I can actually build a custom system from the ground up instead of stripping one away and making it custom (though still not quite).

    Being able to compile the kernel, and choose what goes into it was something that surprised me. It was one of the first things I tried to customise! (After selecting the window manager I wanted). I borked the system a few times, but my compiled kernel did run faster and leaner. I mostly customize the GUI (I use FVWM, which allows for some heavy customisation, more than any other WM I've used), the shell, streamlining things, and changing some niggly defaults that don't suit me and adding things I think are missing (like a shutdown/reboot button) on the XDM login screen, disabling pulseaudio, adding the -CK kernel patch, adding scripts, etc, occasionally using my own copy of a binary instead of the distro one (I try to avoid this, because its a headache during updates).

    ... Heisenberg may have slept here.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Dennisk on Fri Aug 14 13:41:00 2020
    On 08-14-20 09:49, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Yes, they moved away from Yum years ago. IIRC, DNF is native code, Yum was python, so DNF is a bit faster. DNF was pretty much a drop in replacement for Yum.

    Ahh OK, cool. So won't be an issue to learn, I am still familiar with yum. :)

    I only use Fedora because my first distro was a Red Hat based one (Definite Linux 7.0) , then I moved to Red Hat (I think 6.2? 7.0?). I stuck with what I know, and Fedora has the packages that I'm used to having installed on my system.

    I started with Ygdrasil(sp?), then Slackware, then moved to Red Hat for a number of years, but in recent years (last 10 or so), I've drifted across to Debian style distros. :)

    A rolling Fedora distro does sound like not a bad way to go.


    ... A diplomat is a man who thinks twice before saying nothing.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Vk3jed on Fri Aug 14 22:25:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-

    On 08-14-20 09:49, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Yes, they moved away from Yum years ago. IIRC, DNF is native code, Yum was python, so DNF is a bit faster. DNF was pretty much a drop in replacement for Yum.

    Ahh OK, cool. So won't be an issue to learn, I am still familiar with yum. :)

    There were some differences with the API, and how it works internally, but from the POV of a user, its almost exactly the same. You likely won't have to do anything different except type "dnf" where you used to type "yum".

    I only use Fedora because my first distro was a Red Hat based one (Definite Linux 7.0) , then I moved to Red Hat (I think 6.2? 7.0?). I stuck with what I know, and Fedora has the packages that I'm used to having installed on my system.

    I started with Ygdrasil(sp?), then Slackware, then moved to Red Hat for
    a number of years, but in recent years (last 10 or so), I've drifted across to Debian style distros. :)

    A rolling Fedora distro does sound like not a bad way to go.

    Stick with what works for you. I don't feel the need to evangelise any particular distro, but if you do want to remain up to date, Fedora is great in that regard.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to paulie420 on Fri Aug 14 14:35:47 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: paulie420 to DaiTengu on Sun Aug 09 2020 10:58 pm

    If you ever are wanting Arch again, google ARCHFI and use that script to do the installation... it guides you thru install; you don't have to know the inner workings of linux to get wifi and other essentials going.

    However, I suggest that people use Archfi once and then go back and learn the linuxy stuff... its great knowledge to have, if you ever have to dig in on other systems some day.


    Linux is literally my day job. :)

    I'm a sysadmin for a large adtech company. I manage about 2000 physical servers and a couple hundred virtual ones.

    It's been some time since I tried to play with Arch, I keep meaning to go back to it, but honestly, dealing with Linux all day really has killed my desire to tinker with it in my free time. :)

    DaiTengu

    ... The worst thing about censorship is ██████████.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to Arelor on Fri Aug 14 14:42:04 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Arelor to DaiTengu on Mon Aug 10 2020 07:38 am

    Sadly,Slackware has been losing ground to OpenBSD in my networks since Patrick has such bad communication issues. The current -stable release of Slackware is getting a bit outdated for some tasks and I find myself upgrading those boxes to OpenBSD -release. Slackware development is very active - changelogs scrolling blazing fast - but we don't get a picture of that the release goals are and what we can expect.

    Roadmaps are nice to have, especially with huge open source projects like distros. It sounds like they just don't quite have a "big picture" group as to where they want to go.

    The only machine I run any kind of *BSD on here is my pfSense router. I haven't used it in any production environment in about a decade.

    My go-to choice for any kind of production server is CentOS. It's stable, and that's often what I need.

    DaiTengu

    ... I can't promise anything but I can promise 100%.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to Arelor on Fri Aug 14 14:47:55 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Arelor to MRO on Mon Aug 10 2020 09:19 am

    s windows so hard for you? they designed it so even idiots wont
    have problems with it.

    Make a program that a fool could use, and only a fool will want to use it.

    I run windows on my main PC here at home. I have multiple "other" PCs that all run some flavor of Linux. (the Laptop I'm typing this on right now is on Fedora 32, I have another laptop that I rarely touch anymore that runs SuSE, my main "devbox" runs Gentoo and my NAS / Server runs unRAID which is built on Slackware. That hosts a bunch of docker containers and a couple VMs.)

    Mostly the Windows PC is still there for games, but I do have some software applications that I depend upon that will only run on Windows (and not through Wine).

    DaiTengu

    ... This tagline is SHAREWARE! To register, send me $10

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to DaiTengu on Sat Aug 15 04:12:27 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: DaiTengu to Arelor on Fri Aug 14 2020 02:42 pm

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Arelor to DaiTengu on Mon Aug 10 2020 07:38 am

    Sadly,Slackware has been losing ground to OpenBSD in my networks since Patrick has such bad communication issues. The current -stable release of Slackware is
    getting a bit outdated for some tasks and I find myself upgrading those boxes to OpenBSD -release. Slackware development is very active - changelogs scrolling
    blazing fast - but we don't get a picture of that the release goals are and what we can expect.

    Roadmaps are nice to have, especially with huge open source projects like distros. It sounds like they just don't quite have a "big picture" group as to where they
    want to go.

    The only machine I run any kind of *BSD on here is my pfSense router. I haven't used it in any production environment in about a decade.

    My go-to choice for any kind of production server is CentOS. It's stable, and that's often what I need.

    DaiTengu

    ... I can't promise anything but I can promise 100%.


    Heh, just a word of warning. It looks like IBM is doing IBM things and started quietly outsourcing what Red Hat's team used to do to India. So much for their promises of
    letting Red Hat be the same it always was...

    --
    gopher://gopher.operationalsecurity.es

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to Arelor on Sat Aug 15 11:06:45 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Arelor to DaiTengu on Sat Aug 15 2020 04:12 am


    Heh, just a word of warning. It looks like IBM is doing IBM things and started quietly outsourcing what Red Hat's team used to do to India. So much for their promises of letting Red Hat be the same it always was...

    I've worked with Indian development teams that are amazing, and ones that are horrible.. I hope IBM can "do the needful" and get the amazing teams...

    DaiTengu

    ... I either want less corruption, or more chance to participate in it.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Dennisk on Sun Aug 16 19:15:00 2020
    On 08-14-20 22:25, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    There were some differences with the API, and how it works internally,
    but from the POV of a user, its almost exactly the same. You likely
    won't have to do anything different except type "dnf" where you used to type "yum".

    So it's dead simple to switch to Dnf. :D

    A rolling Fedora distro does sound like not a bad way to go.

    Stick with what works for you. I don't feel the need to evangelise any particular distro, but if you do want to remain up to date, Fedora is great in that regard.

    Yeah, the primary determinant of what distro I use is the use case. A lot of software is easier to work with under one distro or another. Some particularly tricky to compile (usually because of a myriad of dependencies from multiple non standard sources) may be available precompiled for a particular distro, or dependencies may be easier to satisfy on certsin distros.

    Much amateur software these days tends to favour Debian based systems, and that's the primary reason I run mostly Debian or variants. There was a time when Red Hat/CentOS were the preferred distros.


    ... He knew everything about literature, except how to enjoy it.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Underminer@VERT/UNDRMINE to Vk3jed on Sun Aug 16 13:28:58 2020
    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Vk3jed to Dennisk on Sun Aug 16 2020 07:15 pm

    Yeah, the primary determinant of what distro I use is the use case. A lot of software is easier to work with under one distro or another. Some particularly tricky to compile (usually because of a myriad of
    Much amateur software these days tends to favour Debian based systems, and that's the primary reason I run mostly Debian or variants. There was a time when Red Hat/CentOS were the preferred distros.

    Yeah, if there's a package available there's going to be a .deb. The AUR is super nice in Arch though.
    ---
    Underminer
    The Undermine BBS - bbs.undermine.ca:423
    Fidonet: 1:342/17
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ The Undermine - bbs.undermine.ca:423
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Vk3jed on Mon Aug 17 08:59:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-

    On 08-14-20 22:25, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    There were some differences with the API, and how it works internally,
    but from the POV of a user, its almost exactly the same. You likely
    won't have to do anything different except type "dnf" where you used to type "yum".

    So it's dead simple to switch to Dnf. :D

    From yum? Yes. If you know yum, you know dnf.
    A rolling Fedora distro does sound like not a bad way to go.

    Stick with what works for you. I don't feel the need to evangelise any particular distro, but if you do want to remain up to date, Fedora is great in that regard.

    Yeah, the primary determinant of what distro I use is the use case. A
    lot of software is easier to work with under one distro or another.
    Some particularly tricky to compile (usually because of a myriad of dependencies from multiple non standard sources) may be available precompiled for a particular distro, or dependencies may be easier to satisfy on certsin distros.

    Much amateur software these days tends to favour Debian based systems,
    and that's the primary reason I run mostly Debian or variants. There
    was a time when Red Hat/CentOS were the preferred distros.

    I tend to find that there are sometimes .deb's where there aren't .rpms. Not often, but it does happen. Typically with software packaged by the software creator. On occasion, I've found a .deb, but no .rpm.

    Not a deal breaker, as its rare, but .deb system have a slight advantage there, and is probably the one factor which pushes me toward Debian.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From paulie420@VERT/BEERS20 to DaiTengu on Sun Aug 16 20:59:00 2020
    Linux is literally my day job. :)
    I'm a sysadmin for a large adtech company. I manage about 2000
    physical server s and a couple hundred virtual ones.
    dealing with Linux all day really has
    killed my desire to ti nker with it in my free time. :)

    Lol, I literally had a buddy who started using Linux at home for all his computing needs because he was a Windows admin in the 90s. :) I hear ya...



    |07p|15AULIE|1142|07o
    |08.........
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Underminer on Mon Aug 17 17:22:00 2020
    On 08-16-20 13:28, Underminer wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    that's the primary reason I run mostly Debian or variants. There was a time when Red Hat/CentOS were the preferred distros.

    Yeah, if there's a package available there's going to be a .deb. The

    Exactly, though even more common now is a complete apt repository, so you just download a .deb or a script that installs the repository, then apt-get install <package>. :)

    AUR is super nice in Arch though. ---

    I was considering Arch at one stage, but never got around to it.



    ... What?! I'm missing Star Tre$#%$^ NO CARRIER
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Dennisk on Mon Aug 17 17:34:00 2020
    On 08-17-20 08:59, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    From yum? Yes. If you know yum, you know dnf.

    Cool, of course, I could even do:

    ln -s dnf yum

    from the directory dnf resides in.

    I tend to find that there are sometimes .deb's where there aren't
    .rpms. Not often, but it does happen. Typically with software
    packaged by the software creator. On occasion, I've found a .deb, but
    no .rpm.

    I even have software that not only had a .deb, but a complete apt repository, and some that are quite distribution specific - I had to use Debian 9 to successfully install the AllStarLink RoIP system. The .debs would install on other distros like Ubuntu 18.04, but the source for Dahdi (the drivers) wouldn't compile on Ubuntu.

    Not a deal breaker, as its rare, but .deb system have a slight
    advantage there, and is probably the one factor which pushes me toward Debian.

    Yeah, the availability of apt repos and version specificity has definitely kept me in the Debian camp in recent years.


    ... Great thing about UDP jokes? I don't care if you get them.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Dennisk on Mon Aug 17 03:22:27 2020
    On 8/14/2020 8:11 AM, Dennisk wrote:

    Being able to compile the kernel, and choose what goes into it was something that surprised me. It was one of the first things I tried to customise! (After
    selecting the window manager I wanted). I borked the system a few times, but my compiled kernel did run faster and leaner. I mostly customize the GUI (I use FVWM, which allows for some heavy customisation, more than any other WM I've used), the shell, streamlining things, and changing some niggly defaults that don't suit me and adding things I think are missing (like a shutdown/reboot button) on the XDM login screen, disabling pulseaudio, adding the -CK kernel patch, adding scripts, etc, occasionally using my own copy of a
    binary instead of the distro one (I try to avoid this, because its a headache during updates).

    I did a Gentoo install once about a decade and a half ago for a database server, I literally only wanted the minimum for the database server
    software installed. Man, that was a total pain, but it ran really well.

    For my personal use, I'm inclined to go with PopOS or Linux Mint
    (Cinnamon). I just don't like taking the time tbh, I'd rather just get
    stuff done. On the servers, mostly Ubuntu Server, or use the hosted kubernetes option. I'll use alpine for app base docker container
    versions when possible, usually debian otherwise.

    For the couple things I've played around in with Rust, can use a bare container, which is pretty nifty.

    --
    Michael J. Ryan
    tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Roughneck BBS - coming back 2/2/20
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to DaiTengu on Mon Aug 17 03:26:53 2020
    On 8/14/2020 12:35 PM, DaiTengu wrote:

    It's been some time since I tried to play with Arch, I keep meaning to go back to it, but honestly, dealing with Linux all day really has killed my desire to tinker with it in my free time. :)

    That's effectively me and programming on side/personal projects that I
    want to work on, but really quickly lose motivation.

    --
    Michael J. Ryan
    tracker1 +o Roughneck BBS

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Roughneck BBS - coming back 2/2/20
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Vk3jed on Mon Aug 17 21:59:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-

    On 08-17-20 08:59, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    From yum? Yes. If you know yum, you know dnf.

    Cool, of course, I could even do:

    ln -s dnf yum

    from the directory dnf resides in.


    I just found that I stil have yum installed!

    I tend to find that there are sometimes .deb's where there aren't
    .rpms. Not often, but it does happen. Typically with software
    packaged by the software creator. On occasion, I've found a .deb, but
    no .rpm.

    I even have software that not only had a .deb, but a complete apt repository, and some that are quite distribution specific - I had to
    use Debian 9 to successfully install the AllStarLink RoIP system. The .debs would install on other distros like Ubuntu 18.04, but the source
    for Dahdi (the drivers) wouldn't compile on Ubuntu.

    Not a deal breaker, as its rare, but .deb system have a slight
    advantage there, and is probably the one factor which pushes me toward Debian.

    Yeah, the availability of apt repos and version specificity has
    definitely kept me in the Debian camp in recent years.

    Perhaps not worth moving on for you then?

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Dennisk on Tue Aug 18 08:21:00 2020
    On 08-17-20 21:59, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    I just found that I stil have yum installed!

    Haha is it actual yum or a symlink to dnf?

    Yeah, the availability of apt repos and version specificity has
    definitely kept me in the Debian camp in recent years.

    Perhaps not worth moving on for you then?

    At this time, no, but if there's something I intend to use heavily that requires Red Hat/Fedora, or at least strongly prefers a RH flavoured distro, then I will seriously consider Fedora over CentOS.


    ... Are the taglines too long, or is the tagline-space to sh
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Vk3jed on Tue Aug 18 21:15:00 2020
    Vk3jed wrote to Dennisk <=-

    On 08-17-20 21:59, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    I just found that I stil have yum installed!

    Haha is it actual yum or a symlink to dnf?

    It's a symlink to dnf!

    Yeah, the availability of apt repos and version specificity has
    definitely kept me in the Debian camp in recent years.

    Perhaps not worth moving on for you then?

    At this time, no, but if there's something I intend to use heavily that requires Red Hat/Fedora, or at least strongly prefers a RH flavoured distro, then I will seriously consider Fedora over CentOS.

    Cool. If any questions, let me know.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Dennisk on Wed Aug 19 13:32:00 2020
    On 08-18-20 21:15, Dennisk wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Haha is it actual yum or a symlink to dnf?

    It's a symlink to dnf!

    Haha that'll definitely work. :D

    At this time, no, but if there's something I intend to use heavily that requires Red Hat/Fedora, or at least strongly prefers a RH flavoured distro, then I will seriously consider Fedora over CentOS.

    Cool. If any questions, let me know.

    OK, will do. I'm pretty distro agnostic, it depends more on the workload than anything else. :)


    ... Early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.51
    ■ Synchronet ■ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Atroxi@VERT to Dennisk on Tue Aug 18 22:02:00 2020
    Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Dennisk wrote to MRO <=-

    MRO wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Dennisk to MRO on Mon Aug 10 2020 08:50 pm

    boot things out the window far too often.

    why is windows so hard for you? they designed it so even idiots wont
    have problems with it. ---

    Idiots may not have problems with it, but anyone who isn't one, will.


    if someone is smart enough, they will be smart enough not to have problems. ---

    I don't think it works quite like that. Some people are too smart, and end up creating problems they didn't need to.

    Yeah, I remember years ago when I really wanted to customize the crap
    out of the Windows 7 box, with all those custom aero stuff and
    aesthetic stuff that only a nerd teenager would care about. I went into
    a dive of modifying system files to the point of breaking my system
    just because I wanted to change the way it works. Then, I found
    GNU/Linux and it blew my mind how I can actually build a custom system from the ground up instead of stripping one away and making it custom (though still not quite).

    Being able to compile the kernel, and choose what goes into it was something that surprised me. It was one of the first things I tried to customise! (After selecting the window manager I wanted). I borked the system a few times, but my compiled kernel did run faster and leaner.
    I mostly customize the GUI (I use FVWM, which allows for some heavy customisation, more than any other WM I've used), the shell,
    streamlining things, and changing some niggly defaults that don't suit
    me and adding things I think are missing (like a shutdown/reboot
    button) on the XDM login screen, disabling pulseaudio, adding the -CK kernel patch, adding scripts, etc,

    Oh yes. What a thrill doing something like that is. A few months ago I dived head-first into Gentoo and suddenly a whole world of customization was opened to me. I never imagined how these small tweaks would actually be beneficial on the long run but it did. Sadly, the amount of time compiling packages really took a toll on me, haha! And I feel like I'm not yet smart enough to deal with stuff or maybe I'm just lazy to give up a weekend to just learn the stuff.

    Right now I've pretty much integrated my whole setup around using bspwm and terminal applications. It's surprising to me actually how little that I need to have to be able to use my computer productively (or not, haha!). Most of the time I'm just writing stuff and that's done through vim and I either compile it to LaTeX or groff. Other than that, most of the stuff that I have are scripts that I wrote to manage the system's functions like using dmenu as a power menu, display menu, mount menu, etc. I think right now the only thing that I'm missing is the ability to do spreadsheets, and while libreoffice does that I would like to do spreadsheets in the commandline.

    occasionally using my own copy of a binary instead of the distro one
    (I try to avoid this, because its a headache during updates).

    Oh man. It IS a pain.

    ... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (P)anic
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Vertrauen ■ Home of Synchronet ■ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Dennisk@VERT/EOTLBBS to Atroxi on Mon Aug 24 21:55:00 2020
    Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Dennisk wrote to Atroxi <=-

    Atroxi wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Dennisk wrote to MRO <=-

    MRO wrote to Dennisk <=-

    Re: Re: Linux
    By: Dennisk to MRO on Mon Aug 10 2020 08:50 pm

    boot things out the window far too often.

    why is windows so hard for you? they designed it so even idiots wont
    have problems with it. ---

    Idiots may not have problems with it, but anyone who isn't one, will.


    if someone is smart enough, they will be smart enough not to have problems. ---

    I don't think it works quite like that. Some people are too smart, and end up creating problems they didn't need to.

    Yeah, I remember years ago when I really wanted to customize the crap
    out of the Windows 7 box, with all those custom aero stuff and
    aesthetic stuff that only a nerd teenager would care about. I went into
    a dive of modifying system files to the point of breaking my system
    just because I wanted to change the way it works. Then, I found
    GNU/Linux and it blew my mind how I can actually build a custom system from the ground up instead of stripping one away and making it custom (though still not quite).

    Being able to compile the kernel, and choose what goes into it was something that surprised me. It was one of the first things I tried to customise! (After selecting the window manager I wanted). I borked the system a few times, but my compiled kernel did run faster and leaner.
    I mostly customize the GUI (I use FVWM, which allows for some heavy customisation, more than any other WM I've used), the shell,
    streamlining things, and changing some niggly defaults that don't suit
    me and adding things I think are missing (like a shutdown/reboot
    button) on the XDM login screen, disabling pulseaudio, adding the -CK kernel patch, adding scripts, etc,

    Oh yes. What a thrill doing something like that is. A few months ago I dived head-first into Gentoo and suddenly a whole world of
    customization was opened to me. I never imagined how these small tweaks would actually be beneficial on the long run but it did. Sadly, the
    amount of time compiling packages really took a toll on me, haha! And I feel like I'm not yet smart enough to deal with stuff or maybe I'm just lazy to give up a weekend to just learn the stuff.

    Right now I've pretty much integrated my whole setup around using bspwm and terminal applications. It's surprising to me actually how little
    that I need to have to be able to use my computer productively (or not, haha!). Most of the time I'm just writing stuff and that's done through vim and I either compile it to LaTeX or groff. Other than that, most of the stuff that I have are scripts that I wrote to manage the system's functions like using dmenu as a power menu, display menu, mount menu,
    etc. I think right now the only thing that I'm missing is the ability
    to do spreadsheets, and while libreoffice does that I would like to do spreadsheets in the commandline.

    occasionally using my own copy of a binary instead of the distro one
    (I try to avoid this, because its a headache during updates).

    Oh man. It IS a pain.

    I like groff/nroff. I have some reports that I generate, and instead of using Office productivity programs, I write a program in D to parse some CSV files, and some text explanations I put in two text files, and insert the results of the CSV files as tables into a groff template. (Its a financial report). All I then have to do, is fill in a couple of CSV files, download two more, type text comments in two files, and run a script, and I have a formatted PDF report.

    Another one I do, I did in Open Office, but I found it fidgety (and awkward). So again, a simple CSV file or two, gnuplot and groff, and the report is generated, a PDF with a report and graphs and tables. Sure, it took longer to set up, but once done, I generate the reports in no time. Consistently and fast. In the long run, I save time. If there is some other function I need, I can quickly write it up in the programming language of my choice (or use the unix tools).

    FVWM makes things even easiser, as that Window Manager has its own scripting language and ability to create forms, so I can generate these with a keypress from my Window Manager, bringing up a form, where I can fill a few details to enter.

    ... "42? 7 and a half million years and all you can come up with is 42?!"
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com